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  #21  
Old 15.03.2007, 17:13
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Water vapour has a greater greenhouse effect than CO2 but then the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is very much linked to temperature! Less so with CO2 though if the seas warm up then it will come out of the seas after hundreds of years and make things worse.

Whatever causes the hot and cold cycles does not mean we should not try to change them. Things are getting too hot, currently, and if we can reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere then the greenhouse effect will be slightly reduced and that might help us. At least it is an *attempt* to do something about it. We can get CO2 out of the atmosphere by foresting unused farming land, for example, building structures out of wood and regrowing the trees and using less underground carbon and instead use replaceable carbon.

And when it comes to an ice age and it is getting too cold then we start burning that wood and drilling for oil and burn as much as we need to.
In my view there is no such thing as a 'Green House Effect' because of CO2. As i said CO2's FIR (which is the heating band of sunlight) retention capabilities then does H2O liquid, H2O vapour, O2, Nitrogen or any other organic substance. Nature creates far more CO2 then man does. If man were to leave the planet tomorrow, it would make very little difference to the natural cycles that cause 'global warming' or 'global cooling'.

In other words CO2 is a 'red herring'

Forget about CO2 for a second, and tell me what are the real environmental facing us today? Do you know about the millions of toxic chemicals that are pumped into the rivers, lakes and seas?

Did you know that the average teenager, by the time he is 18, consumes toxic chemicals equal to his own body weight.

So how comes no one is talking about stopping these poisons, and removing the ones that have been dumped or put into our food supplies?
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  #22  
Old 15.03.2007, 17:15
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I don't understand - why would a discussion that about a topic that is probably being talked about all over the UK at least make you want to 'flame' as you put it?
Calming down

It's not the topic, it's your science. Again, I'm no expert, but you're quoting junk science. Confusing babble with nice analogies is a hallmark of this "science".

You actualy quoted a frequency in Microns! a Micron is a unit of distance.

I face up to the fact that real science is very complicated, I leave it up to experts. I fail to see the vested interests of the anti-co2 crowd, but the motives of "carry on as we are" lobby is very clear, and very well funded.

Last edited by cyrus; 15.03.2007 at 17:15. Reason: typo
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  #23  
Old 15.03.2007, 17:32
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Exxon being one of the main mover behind the "Global warming does not happen/is natural", now there is a clearly established conspiracy for all to see...
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  #24  
Old 15.03.2007, 17:34
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Nonsense, there's a rather large difference between a pointless and unjustified war and legitimate environmental concerns. Let's stick to the issue of CO2 = global warming.
Well, the same people that pushed for this "pointless and unjustified war" are now pretending to be the champions of the environment!


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Again, nonsense. I am "unconvinced by either camp" because as an objective scientist I need to see all the evidence collated together along with the statistical confidence associatated with each peice of data to be able to make and informed decision. I haven't the time nor the background in atmospheric physics to be able to do that. So I don't pretend or try to talk authoratitively about something that I'm not qualified to do. However, I do value the opinions of people who really know what they are talking about and work on this problem day-in day-out, i.e. the climate scientists. They may be wrong, but I'd much rather place my belief in them than some Google-searching amateur. As with all branches of science there are always a minority of people who don't agree, and I think that they are useful as they generate and highlight new hypotheses to test. So instead of ignorantly rubbishing the whole idea of CO2-based global warming based on the (media-hyped) questions raised by a minority of scientists, why do we not divert more of our efforts into finding out the truth. As an aside, I couldn't give a shit about what the politicians say - they are just unwanted noice in this issue as far as I'm concerned.
You don't need a degree an atmospheric physics to know if someone is telling you the truth or not.

Instead of relaying on 'scientific experts' that say this or that, or 'google-searching amateurs' as you put it, that say something else, why don't you use your own judgment, based on your own observations of the natural world?

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Bollocks - burning oil creates heat, so the Earth's temperature rises. It's basic physics!
I'm not saying that the temperature doesn't go up when you burn oil, it does, but then it comes down again. In the saudi desert the mid-day temperatures might be around 50 degrees, caused by the suns relenting heat, but in the evening the same place, the same sand will have temperature around 5 degrees.

If there was no sun, and you were to heat the whole of saudi from 5 degrees to 50 degrees how much oil would you need?

I'd imagine more oil then there is in the whole of the saudi kingdom!
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  #25  
Old 15.03.2007, 17:47
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

For crying out loud man, stop mixing issues pertaining to the illegal wars our neo-imperialist friends have been indulging into and what is the consensus amongst the global scientific community, they were not the one pushing to invade Iraq...Politicians have waited up until the very last minute to start acting, warnings have been sounded for decades now.

You seem to give far too much worth to your own judgement when it comes to global warming, are you really that clever that you can deny the joint work of thousands of scientists including the most able minds in the field of climatology and come up with conclusions that hardly anyone endorses...? The facts behind it have been peer-reviewed to death and the all point towards the same conclusion...
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  #26  
Old 15.03.2007, 17:54
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

James

Just got a quick question hoping you can clarify. If as you say global warming from CO2 is a lie from politicians, authorities, corrupt scientists etc. What is "their" ulterior motive for trying to get us reduce burning fossil fuels and reduce consumption.

I can see no reason why politicians would try to get us to ultimately slow down economic growth and I can't compare this to some spectre like the red menace or terrorism to scare us into a phoney war.

To reiterate it seems you are saying that global is propoganda, but for what ends? Who is going to benefit?

Cheers
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  #27  
Old 15.03.2007, 17:54
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Calming down

It's not the topic, it's your science. Again, I'm no expert, but you're quoting junk science. Confusing babble with nice analogies is a hallmark of this "science".

You actualy quoted a frequency in Microns! a Micron is a unit of distance.

I face up to the fact that real science is very complicated, I leave it up to experts. I fail to see the vested interests of the anti-co2 crowd, but the motives of "carry on as we are" lobby is very clear, and very well funded.

I don't recall quoting any science....

This is a page from wikipedia, note the FIR wavelength measurements in microns:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared


If you leave it to the experts, believe me they'll lead you up your own garden path. To not use your own god given judgment is probably the cause of all our problems.

The 'science' of heating is not complicated at all - quite straight forward, even our neandertal ancesters new a thing or two.

Yes, on the face of it vested interests would seem to prefer 'carry on as we are' as you put it, and hence be opposed to the CO2=public enemy no1 brigade.

But if you look a little deeper you'll probably find that both are in the same camp - exploring that is the intention of this tread....
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  #28  
Old 15.03.2007, 18:17
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Do share with us your findings then, what dark conspiracy have you discovered in the darkest recesses of the internet...?

Put facts on the table, what are those common interests between the global warming deniers and those supporting the theory? What are the sources?
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  #29  
Old 15.03.2007, 18:18
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

At the heart of it though, I think James has a point. To the best of my knowledge, scientists have reached the conclusion that global warming is caused by excess CO2 by comparing the amount of CO2 in upper reaches of the atmosphere with the temperature, and by coming up with a scientifically plausible way that the two are linked. This process has been repeated again and again all over the world, including measurements of CO2 content correlated with temperature in icesheets in the Antarctica and Arctic, as well as using rather complex computer simulations, until so many scientists are in accord with this conclusion that it is the established theory.

Note that phrase - established theory. There has not been any proof, from what I know. How could you possibly prove it without an experiment involving a control planet and a planet where you add only CO2 to investigate the effects? Since such a thing is ridiculous, this best theory is what scientists, then the public and now politicians, are going with. Ten years ago there was much scepticism in science about this theory, but since then the evidence has built up until it is the best theory by a long way. Sure there is a chance it is the wrong explanation for the climate changes seen in the last few decades, but that will only become clear in hindsight, in hundreds of years time, if not longer.

We won't know until measures to change CO2 emission have an effect, then we observe the effect. Even then it would not be completely certain, but I scarcely think most would care, if it averted the increasing danger levels noted now.

However, I hardly believe it is any plot by world powers to bamboozle us. Remember the public and science accepted this theory long before most politicians addressed it. Now, some politicians are pushing for change on CO2 and energy use because they believe it will help us all, and some because it is the way the political wind is blowing. Nothing more.

Oh, but I'm all for listening to the experts. I would trust a climate scientist's word on this topic more than my own (a simple solid state physicist/former geophysicist). Alternate opinions are all well and good, but when a non-professional denies something touted by someone who really knows what they are talking, it is somewhat irrational.
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  #30  
Old 15.03.2007, 18:43
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Do share with us your findings then, what dark conspiracy have you discovered in the darkest recesses of the internet...?

Put facts on the table, what are those common interests between the global warming deniers and those supporting the theory? What are the sources?
Sorry to disappoint, but i've not actually looked at the internet on this issue...

I think that CO2 = public enemy no1 is probably an attempt to to hijack the global concern about the environment. By focusing all attention on CO2, people will forget about the thousands of real poisons that we are faced with.

Did you know that Al Gore (CO2=enemy no1) is cousin of Bush (what global warming?) ?

Do you really think that Blair, who probably single handedly took Britain into the Iraq war against all opposition, has had a change of heart and has decided to atone for his sins? Do you suppose that the death of countless thousands of innocent children was on his conscience, so he decided to do his bit for the environment?
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  #31  
Old 15.03.2007, 19:03
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Right, so whatever cabal is hiding behind the global warming hoax,it is in fact pushing a hidden agenda of poisonning the planet with thousands of real poisons, unbekown to us...

And Bush and Gore are in this together.

And Blair is only pushing the issue because he feels guilty about Iraq.(A shame he does not, he sounded as convinced as ever on a recent R4 interview and it is equally a shame that he's been pushing on action on global warming long before the Iraq war...)

Are the Illuminati involved in this?
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  #32  
Old 15.03.2007, 19:10
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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James

Just got a quick question hoping you can clarify. If as you say global warming from CO2 is a lie from politicians, authorities, corrupt scientists etc. What is "their" ulterior motive for trying to get us reduce burning fossil fuels and reduce consumption.

I can see no reason why politicians would try to get us to ultimately slow down economic growth and I can't compare this to some spectre like the red menace or terrorism to scare us into a phoney war.

To reiterate it seems you are saying that global is propoganda, but for what ends? Who is going to benefit?

Cheers
Hi Richard,

There are probably many reasons. I have my own beliefs about the real Why, but these are what some people are saying:

William Douglas, MD responding to Byrony Worthington of Friends of the Earth said:

"this whole farce is indeed scary because you ignorant people are driving the world toward an "emissions control" international dictatorship that is designed to destroy our industrial society."


This is quote from the Taoist author Daniel Reid (the Tao of Health, Sex and Longevity, Chi Gung, The Tao of Detox, etc), when asked about it last year on another forum:

=============================

OIL CARTELS

The supply of fossil fuels as we all know is limited

Those in control want to make as much money as possible out of it and at the same time exercise as much control as possible over the people so we can expect a well as the obvious crazy increases in prices, fuel rationing, and of course more taxes for bigger engines etc etc etc

So where does global warming come in......

Well its the classic case of "create problem, provide solution"

The "problem" is global warming, which as said before does not really exist at least not due to greenhouse gases and fossil fuel emissions blah blah......

The "solution" is the government comes to our rescue, how kind.....
.......

oh how so kind the saviors of global warming.......... meanwhile they're reaping in maximum profits from the last of the fossil fuel reserves and also conveniently keeping us all in line...........................

and also there's a healthy dose of political maneuvering going on, just watch Mr Gore!

So in the end they make more money out of the "last days of fossil fuels""

More money out of the transition days to alternative energy and get more power out of the people by creating the fear of the global warming caused by pollution, aerosols, etc etc...........

don't you just love it?!

========================
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  #33  
Old 15.03.2007, 19:30
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

The argument will run and run and is no different from other eternal arguments - people do not change their minds as a result of argument, even when they are 'proved' wrong. A political leftie will never be persuaded to the rightie view by argument.

This is possibly the latest manifestation of the guilt and penance needs of the middle classes, sacrifice, abstinence - we've heard it all before over the centuries. The Incas sacrificed people, ancient biblicalistas, goats, to what end?

Now our lesser and poorers are being educated to sacrifice pleasures which happen to produce co2.

Interestingly, the vast majority of believers are not scientists, just recyclers of warmed over journalista droppings. Raw data is hard to come by and would speak fo itself- but .............
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  #34  
Old 15.03.2007, 19:49
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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And your evidence for this accusation is...?

Facts. The question is not whether high carbon dioxide in the atmosphere occurs in ages of high temperatures or not, it is how much we are contributing and whether there is anything we can do to keep things fit for humans (Slough excepted).
Saying that CO2 can increase the earths temperature is an absurd thing to say - like saying Superman exists, and he can warm up the earth by blowing on it!

I don't need evidence to prove that it doesn't - I can plainly see that it doesn't. I will need to see a considerable amount of evidence to believe that such a thing could possibly happen.

If 10000 scientists said that superman exists and he can heat up the earth, would you believe them?

CO2 is a perfectly natural gas, all living things manufacture it. You are creating it all the time - tons and tons of it over a period of time.

In the calculation that Mark pointed to, the CO2 created by nature (ie by the respiration of living things) is several times more then manufactured by man. But even if this were not the case, CO2 has nothing to do with global warming.

Do a little experiment - take two glass bottles, one with air, the other with the same air - 5%, replaced with 5% CO2. Place both equidistant in front of a radiant heat source and monitor the temperature of both bottles.

I bet you that the temperature in both bottles will remain exactly the same. In other words, the presence of the additional 5% CO2 would make ZERO difference to temperature.

We do not contribute to global warming from the burning of fossil fuels in any way.

We do contribute, or rather, directly cause ALL the pollution, the destruction of the environment, the slaughter of countless species of life, and countless other crimes against nature. But we do not cause and can not cause the temperature of the earth to go up or down.
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  #35  
Old 15.03.2007, 19:55
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

An MD and a Taoist are indeed the kind of people I expect to know a lot about climatology...

Felix, this:

"Interestingly, the vast majority of believers are not scientists, just recyclers of warmed over journalista droppings. Raw data is hard to come by and would speak fo itself- but ............."

is complete and utter tosh, the vast majority of "believers" are scientists who worked on the problem and came to solid, scientificically sound conclusions. And there is ample data to, if not prove wihtout a doubt, certainly points strongly to the veracity of the model.

This has nothing to do with middle-class angst, even less so with religious beliefs of yesteryear, it has even less to do with right/left politics (the recent C4 documentary was made by an ex-Living Marxism journalist...)
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  #36  
Old 15.03.2007, 19:57
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I don't need evidence to prove that it doesn't
and that removes all credibility from anything you say.
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  #37  
Old 15.03.2007, 20:02
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Global warming is a load of hot air.
exactly ... its been happening for decades, and no one gave a rat's ass... suddenly Al Gore (the guy who invented the Internet!) makes a movie, and all the honchos at Davos are shedding tears about global warming ...

it'll go away in a month or two ... watch out for the coming financial meltdown
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  #38  
Old 15.03.2007, 20:13
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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and that removes all credibility from anything you say.
So you believe that CO2 has a magical effect of raising the air temperature, a unique property not found in any other gas known to man.

Why don't you get a container of CO2 and use it to cut down on your heating bills?

If a little CO2 can heat the entire earth, then why aren't we using it for some local warming? Why don't we trap some of the CO2 released by cars, planes, industrial plants and use it to heat our homes?

Because CO2 does not have any heating effect.

If a scientist can demonstrate that CO2 has a miraculous ability to heat the entire globe, that would be the scientific discovery of the century, surpassing all else that has been discovered by man.

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  #39  
Old 15.03.2007, 20:39
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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In my view there is no such thing as a 'Green House Effect' because of CO2. As i said CO2's FIR (which is the heating band of sunlight) retention capabilities then does H2O liquid, H2O vapour, O2, Nitrogen or any other organic substance. Nature creates far more CO2 then man does. If man were to leave the planet tomorrow, it would make very little difference to the natural cycles that cause 'global warming' or 'global cooling'.

In other words CO2 is a 'red herring'

Forget about CO2 for a second, and tell me what are the real environmental facing us today? Do you know about the millions of toxic chemicals that are pumped into the rivers, lakes and seas?

Did you know that the average teenager, by the time he is 18, consumes toxic chemicals equal to his own body weight.

So how comes no one is talking about stopping these poisons, and removing the ones that have been dumped or put into our food supplies?
This is a thread about global warming so I will address that.

CO2 absorbs IR radiation as does H2O. O2 and N2 do not as these two-atom molecules do not vibrate at those wavelengths. CO2 and H2O radiate it in all directions and more than half of it comes back to Earth. That keeps in IR radiation and so warms things up. The H2O levels are as a direct result of the temperature of this planet. Not so CO2 except after hundreds of years the oceans will give up their CO2 when they become warmer. So it is CO2 more than water vapour that is driving it.

This can be solved. We could grow trees and turn them into charcoal and bury it in disused mines by the trillions of tons. This will remove CO2 from the atmosphere in a big way and we had better hope this is enough. Then when the next ice age comes along we take it out and burn it to put the CO2 back.
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Old 15.03.2007, 21:08
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Nice provocation! James, you are right by stating that CO2 is not the only problem but it is by far the biggest. Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), methane, nitrous oxide, ozone contribute with 50% to the man-made effects. The other 50% is due to CO2. The CO2 elevation is not 5% as you suggest. It increased since the beginning of the industrialization by 30%. Such a dramatic increase in CO2 was never recored in 160 000 years of CO2 history. Nobody can prove that this increase is man-made but no reasonable scientist doubts it.

By the way in the lab the glasshouse effect of different gases is measurable. So have fun with emptying the bottles for your experiment. Hmmm, sorry to tell you, it won't work. Remember GLASShouse effect...
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