Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #401  
Old 18.07.2008, 15:03
evilshell's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, formerly Basel
Posts: 3,348
Groaned at 97 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 3,093 Times in 1,341 Posts
evilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
LOL - Paul, I actually meant to hit quote and mistakenly clicked on Groan. I'm not sure how I can give you back your virginity. Maybe one of the mods can restore your virgo intacta status?
Go back to the post you groaned at and click on "remove your groan"
Reply With Quote
  #402  
Old 18.07.2008, 15:04
Uncle GroOve's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mendrisio
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 733 Times in 382 Posts
Uncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
LOL - Paul, I actually meant to hit quote and mistakenly clicked on Groan. I'm not sure how I can give you back your virginity. Maybe one of the mods can restore your virgo intacta status?

My only point is that I don't see why you don't want questioning as to motives or as to who might profit. It seems rather naive to assume that all involved have pure intentions solely.

So we should just accept and fall into line because you don't think there's a chance against "more discussion, finger pointing and bickering"??? It sounds like if it were left up to you, some people would still believe the world was flat.

Thinking outside of the box is a good thing IMHO.
Gotcha... no offense taken - it takes quite a lot to get me to push the groan-moan

I have absolutely nothing against any form of lateral / out-of-the-box thinking... it's the story of my life, literally.

My post actually meant to convey the fact that ACTION is needed on *climate CHANGE*. But several spinmeisters are still focussing the debate on the global warming - bringing ordinary folks to continuously question the value of the worthy scientists who are dedicating all of their time, career, intelligence, resources to climate.

I don't blame the ordinary folks - look outside your window. Is this summer? 21°C?? All these clouds remind me of northern England, for pete's sakes. Scientists are a bunch of idiots just like the rest of us, etc... You get the idea.

So what I'm saying is - get it done with all the bickering and invest time in proposing alternatives and solutions for a planet with a more volatile and dangerous climate.

Least you think If that acting is in any way easy, just remember what happened to that US woman who rallied the peace groups @ the Crawford Ranch in Texas against Iraq and GWB. At the end she called it quits because of internal strife, competition, ego and destructive dissent.
And that despite a cause with ample media coverage, quantifiable, unmistakable hard evidence in terms of casualties amongst family members, friends, relatives, and hard political opposition to GWB / republicans, mind you.

Maybe there is an underlying truth to the Tower of Babel story after all.....

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #403  
Old 18.07.2008, 15:06
cyrus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Emmenbruecke
Posts: 2,904
Groaned at 37 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 3,471 Times in 1,513 Posts
cyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I think the simplistic answer to that is MONEY. Pots to made out of all the suckers who believe all that stuff.
Yeah, coz all that stuff about CFCs and lead in petrol turned out to be complete bull.

Lead... honestly... I've seen lead, it just sits there, doing nothing. Utter tosh. Ruined a perfectly good business for nothing. Bloody crazy scientists.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank cyrus for this useful post:
  #404  
Old 18.07.2008, 15:14
Uncle GroOve's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mendrisio
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 733 Times in 382 Posts
Uncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I think the simplistic answer to that is MONEY. Pots to made out of all the suckers who believe all that stuff.
LOL. Again. It's not about "Global Warming(s)".
It's about Climate Change.
Go tell the suckers who run the reinsurance game. Go explain a thing or two about climate and costs.
LOL.
Reply With Quote
  #405  
Old 18.07.2008, 15:17
Fraueli's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 310
Groaned at 10 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 244 Times in 149 Posts
Fraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputation
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
The problem is that extremely powerful groups want to prevent us from believing it, since it would have a dramatic impact on their profits (trillions of future profits are at stake).

There would be no discussion, whether it was real or not if those groups didn't infuse billions of dollars into commercial media.
Both of these sentences work from both sides.

99% or more eh? Where are those stats from? It seems to me that if 99% or more of anybody believed anything at all, it would be established fact.

I'm not disputing that there is/was global warming but I don't think we have all the info on what is causing it. And hey as for 99% and all, it doesn't do much to persuade me - perhaps I'm just cynical about it but I've lived long enough to know that just because people believe something, it doesn't make it true. I just have a hunch that when it comes to this stuff, we are probably about only one little baby foot outside of the cave.

Edited to add: Paul, Voila! Your virginity is restored! - Thanks for the help Evilshell!
Reply With Quote
  #406  
Old 18.07.2008, 15:28
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Both of these sentences work from both sides.

99% or more eh? Where are those stats from? It seems to me that if 99% or more of anybody believed anything at all, it would be established fact.

I'm not disputing that there is/was global warming but I don't think we have all the info on what is causing it. And hey as for 99% and all, it doesn't do much to persuade me - perhaps I'm just cynical about it but I've lived long enough to know that just because people believe something, it doesn't make it true. I just have a hunch that when it comes to this stuff, we are probably about only one little baby foot outside of the cave.

Edited to add: Paul, Voila! Your virginity is restored! - Thanks for the help Evilshell!
If 99 economic experts say the American economy is in a crisis, and George W. Bush says "That's not true, the economy is in great shape".

Who would you believe? ...let me guess.... George W. ?
Reply With Quote
  #407  
Old 18.07.2008, 15:39
Fraueli's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 310
Groaned at 10 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 244 Times in 149 Posts
Fraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputation
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Well funny that you ask that. I did work in a business for 14 years where I made my money going against the trends of what people thought and that may be part of the reason for my skepticism.

I also think that there is some psychology in this as well - need to control, need to be dependent, narcissism - the idea that it couldn't have happened before I/We/Humans stepped into the picture. It just strikes me as ego-centric thinking. I'd also throw in histrionics, belief in "the end is near" only with a scientific twist so that the average Joe thinks its beyond his scope to understand.

I'm just suggesting that there may be a lot more going on here.

As for George, I have no idea what his position is on this issue.
Reply With Quote
  #408  
Old 18.07.2008, 15:43
cyrus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Emmenbruecke
Posts: 2,904
Groaned at 37 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 3,471 Times in 1,513 Posts
cyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Well funny that you ask that. I did work in a business for 14 years where I made my money going against the trends of what people thought and that may be part of the reason for my skepticism.

I also think that there is some psychology in this as well - need to control, need to be dependent, narcissism - the idea that it couldn't have happened before I/We/Humans stepped into the picture. It just strikes me as ego-centric thinking. I'd also throw in histrionics, belief in "the end is near" only with a scientific twist so that the average Joe thinks its beyond his scope to understand.

I'm just suggesting that there may be a lot more going on here.

As for George, I have no idea what his position is on this issue.
I'm still seriously interested as to who benefits from the pushing the "climate change is our fault" idea. Why do people think that a bunch of scientists have just made this stuff up?

Apart from anything, I think it's a pretty serious gamble to ignore the possibility that it is our fault.
Reply With Quote
  #409  
Old 18.07.2008, 15:50
Uncle GroOve's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mendrisio
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 733 Times in 382 Posts
Uncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post

I'm not disputing that there is/was global warming but I don't think we have all the info on what is causing it.
...

Edited to add: Paul, Voila! Your virginity is restored! - Thanks for the help Evilshell!

a) Thanks for restoring my virginity. What a thrill !

b) As far as the sentenced outlined above is concerned - that is exactly what I meant in my other post.
Namely - it's not about "warming".
Namely what need to adressed are the undeniable effects of the climate change. It is happening so fast that we are already late in adapting to what is already happening before our very own eyes.
The opinionists can stay up all night fighting about who's right about what, but someone has to ensure that all infrastructure is adequate to cope with climate induced disasters.

Better planning for drought and for everyday water usage, rethink land use - keep housing and industries away from rivers, prepare more shelters for the population (where needed), study better solutions to avoid water damages caused by urban-area floods caused by overbuilding and cementification, protect land needed for agricultural purposes, develop royalty free seeds resistant to extreme climatic conditions, etc...

This is all doable - and should have nothing to do with the ongoing "warming-cooling" debate IMHO.

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #410  
Old 18.07.2008, 15:56
Polorise's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: about there
Posts: 2,738
Groaned at 25 Times in 25 Posts
Thanked 2,325 Times in 1,259 Posts
Polorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond reputePolorise has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

¨
interestingly enough, this baby got plugged in yesterday :

Sea-Gen Marine Turbine which works on tidal flows; i.e. is efficient for circa 20 hrs per day & single platform produces 1.2 MW of energy (enough for 1,000 homes)



Gruniad report can be read here : Sea-Gen Strangford Lough

plans are afoot to build a tide-farm off of Anglesey by 2011, which should produce up to 350 MW of energy.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Polorise for this useful post:
  #411  
Old 18.07.2008, 16:02
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
¨
interestingly enough, this baby got plugged in yesterday :

Sea-Gen Marine Turbine which works on tidal flows; i.e. is efficient for circa 20 hrs per day & single platform produces 1.2 MW of energy (enough for 1,000 homes)



Gruniad report can be read here : Sea-Gen Strangford Lough

plans are afoot to build a tide-farm off of Anglesey by 2011, which should produce up to 350 MW of energy.

Cool stuff
Reply With Quote
  #412  
Old 18.07.2008, 16:03
Fraueli's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 310
Groaned at 10 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 244 Times in 149 Posts
Fraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputation
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I'm certainly not suggesting that they just "made this stuff up". I go back to my previous statement that I believe that we are only one little baby foot outside the cave when it comes to this stuff. It may be happening from something that we don't know about yet and I wouldn't rule that possibility out.

Look, I could give you many examples where people believed in something that later turned out to be false. Yes and even scientists.

World is flat, Earth is the center, Thalydimide and other medicines that we are told are safe and turn out to be not safe - along with medical procedures done earlier etc.... The point being that we can only know what we can know at any given point in time but that doesn't make our knowing/our belief accurate.

And cynic that I am, with other emerging nations coming onto the scene, it seems to me that this would be a powerful way to curtail them a bit - curtail as in control.

Paul, I'm happy to restore you to your original state LOL. I get where you are coming from but I wonder about infrastructure. We can't even keep people from rebuilding in Florida or Louisiana after a hurricane hits. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you and the use of the word of "infrastructure". Could you clarify?
Reply With Quote
  #413  
Old 18.07.2008, 16:24
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I'm certainly not suggesting that they just "made this stuff up". I go back to my previous statement that I believe that we are only one little baby foot outside the cave when it comes to this stuff. It may be happening from something that we don't know about yet and I wouldn't rule that possibility out.

Look, I could give you many examples where people believed in something that later turned out to be false. Yes and even scientists.

World is flat, Earth is the center, Thalydimide and other medicines that we are told are safe and turn out to be not safe - along with medical procedures done earlier etc.... The point being that we can only know what we can know at any given point in time but that doesn't make our knowing/our belief accurate.

And cynic that I am, with other emerging nations coming onto the scene, it seems to me that this would be a powerful way to curtail them a bit - curtail as in control.

Paul, I'm happy to restore you to your original state LOL. I get where you are coming from but I wonder about infrastructure. We can't even keep people from rebuilding in Florida or Louisiana after a hurricane hits. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you and the use of the word of "infrastructure". Could you clarify?
I think the best way is to be as good informed as possible, by reading into the subject.

Here's something interesting to read: http://environment.newscientist.com/.../earth/dn11462
Reply With Quote
  #414  
Old 18.07.2008, 16:40
Uncle GroOve's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mendrisio
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 733 Times in 382 Posts
Uncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond reputeUncle GroOve has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
....
Paul, I'm happy to restore you to your original state LOL. I get where you are coming from but I wonder about infrastructure. We can't even keep people from rebuilding in Florida or Louisiana after a hurricane hits. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you and the use of the word of "infrastructure". Could you clarify?
I'll gladly clarify, and I'll give you an example.
If you ever visit Lanzarote (the island in the Canaries) you will notice that in some parts fo the island the grapevines are growing in man-made depressions in the ground, often protected by a low wall. Why is this? It is to shelter the plants from the strong winds that blow across the island, laden with moisture. The depression helps to capture the moisture, and the wall ensures that the vines won't be stressed by the wind (and die).

This is a very easy case of adaptation - I see there's a problem, I find a solution in order to survive and eventually prosper.

All our infrastructure at large, and all the economic processes that derive from this, was built during a climatically stable period - everything that is being currently taught in the universities across the world is mainly based on this historical experience.
BUT: history, to a greater or lessere degree, is becoming less of an accurate benchmark / example to follow looking forward. This is something the insurance companies are acutely aware of. Historical statistics can become totally useless when volatility starts to increase and results are all over the screen, instead of conveniently (for us) following their historical scatter plot.

So IMO that IS the challenge. There's plenty of physical infrastructure that will need to be reworked on - it will also create great job/business opportunities.
Yes it will be expensive - but that is the direct consequence of "volatility" (just think of stock markets for an analogy)... it increases costs... you can't have it both safe, sure and cheap. And in a pure stock-market analogy, the traders don't spend that much time analyzing WHILE something is happening - they get their job done, quick.
The outcome, as usual, depends on preparation and preparedness.

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #415  
Old 18.07.2008, 16:46
Fraueli's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 310
Groaned at 10 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 244 Times in 149 Posts
Fraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputationFraueli has an excellent reputation
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Ok Thanks Paul. I don't disagree with anything you've said as long as I don't have to go shopping in a donkey cart!

Thanks for the link xapadoo, I'll read it later tonight.

We are leaving for a w/e in Zermatt. I will take note to see if the glacier is melting any faster by observing the movement of water flowing down

Good weekend to all!
Reply With Quote
  #416  
Old 20.07.2008, 07:50
BeastOfBodmin's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 875
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 352 Times in 230 Posts
BeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I really don't put my trust in consensus:

Myth of Consensus Explodes: APS Opens Global Warming Debate

Looks like vindication for Jamesk.
As i've opined before on this thread, one of the reasons this APG stuff is considered "politicised" is because the debate in the public at large appears to be degenerate. That is, the debate is little more than an argument about what someone or some public organ may or may not have said as reported in some "journalistic" publication.

Let alone the dangers of giving too much scientific weight to a scientific consensus.

So when I loaded that link, I thought "I know. To help to eliminate bias, why don't I see what the APS actually said rather than believe the words of an online rag."

APS Climate Change Statement

Why don't you do the same? It can only improve the level of debate by conducting a discussion closer to the data or facts.

(By the way, the article did not load properly in FF on my iMAC - so much for DaiilyTech - so the article may well have been updated to account for this journalistic error.)
Reply With Quote
  #417  
Old 20.07.2008, 08:16
BeastOfBodmin's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 875
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 352 Times in 230 Posts
BeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
The whole "who is behind it" and "who is going to profit from [...]" is totally pointless.
And IMHO only serves those who believe in the divide et impera school of thought.
Hear hear.

Unfortunately I can only see the abstract, but that looks interesting (and potentially cause for concern).

From the above link:

"For the first time in the history of life on Earth, one species is killing countless others. For the first time, one species—Homo sapiens; that's us—is waging a war against Nature."

At first, I thought that sentence was rubbish. "What about the advent of oxygen respiring organisms?" But I would suppose that the process of oxygenation took so long that there would have been many different species around long before atmospheric oxygen levels became lethal to anaerobes.
Reply With Quote
  #418  
Old 20.07.2008, 08:23
BeastOfBodmin's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 875
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 352 Times in 230 Posts
BeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
But the difficulty with defending ideas that are against mainstream works well in the long run. Facing a large opposition is a challenge that helps one to refine their arguments and LEARN much more about the subject than when the mainstream is with us.
The contrary ideas, if scientificly expressed, require processing time on the "collective consensus hive brain", which means the consensus is constantly reviewing itself.

Quote:
View Post
Some people even seek that kind of challenge - it brings more publicity, fame, and if you are lucky to be in fact correct...? President of the Universe, make no mistake!
All scientific theories are wrong (falsifiable), after all.
Reply With Quote
  #419  
Old 20.07.2008, 08:28
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Money and Control, Envy and Class war. That is what I believe is behind it all, especially with all this carbon footprint stuff.

I feel also that reasonable amounts of subsidising is far more greener for the planet, than shipping, flying ever-increasing amounts of food, in this case around the world. Also not very many countries play fairly, they bitch about subsidising in another country and quietly go about same in their own country.

Thisis not an easy problem to solve and will not be solved easily.

Last edited by electric_grey; 20.07.2008 at 09:38.
Reply With Quote
  #420  
Old 20.07.2008, 11:08
Mrs Boris's Avatar
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bern
Posts: 12
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 21 Times in 6 Posts
Mrs Boris has made some interesting contributions
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Some very interesting opinions and discussions on this topic. I have recently read a very amazing book on this subject by Bjorn Lomborn called 'The Sceptical Environmentalist'. He is an associate professor of statistics in the department of political science at a university in Denmark. He is also an ex member of Green Peace. His book looks at the REAL state of the world based on facts, or if the facts are impossible to obtain, the most likely scenarios. It is fascinating reading and I recommend it very highly.
I quote from page 317:

'Temperatures have increased 0.6 degrees C over the past century and it is unlikely that this is not in part due to an anthropogenic greenhouse effect'.

Page 305:

'The effects of global warming will be costly, but it will also be expensive to cut CO2. ( . . .) We could, of course, achieve almost instantaneous stabilization of the atmophere's CO2 content and achieve a slow stabilization of the climate by banning all use of fossil fuels right now, but at the same time doing so would practically bring the world to a standstill. This would have incalculable consequences, both economic, health-related and environmental. We could choose to let things take their course, continuing our ever increasing emissions of CO2 and then pay the costs by adapting society in 2100 and later by building dikes, moving island populations, changing farming methods, etc.
In between these two extremes, of course, we have the option of reducing CO2 emissions somewhat and accepting some greenhouse warming'.

Page 306:

a '4 percent cut (. . .) is the optimal carbon reduction for the globe. If an attempt is made on the one hand to cut back more than 4 percent, it will be a net COST to society, because cutting back the final tons above 4 percent costs more than the long-term advantage gained from having a marginally lower temperature. On the other hand, a reduction of less than 4 percent will also be a net COST to society in the long run because the little money saved from not making cheap cuts in CO2 emissions are outweighed by the forgone advantages from a slightly less warm future'.

I found the costs involved amazing. For example,

'the Kyoto Protocol will likely cost at least $150 billion a year, and possibly much more. UNICEF estimates that just $70-80 billion a year could give all Third World inhabitants access to the basics like health, education, water and sanitation. More important still is the fact that if we could muster such a massive investment in the present-day developing countries this would also give them a much better future position in terms of resources and infrastructure from which to manage a future global warming'.

I think the problem is that the future is not in governments' interests. They try to make us feel bad about using small amounts of personal carbon dioxide in our daily lives, and introduce taxes to counteract this. Taxes which they spend in making their life comfortable in the here and now. This money could be better used.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
climate change, climategate, co2, global warming




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0