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  #441  
Old 21.07.2008, 00:39
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Please explain, who will it put out of work?
If they only do 100-200 km, then not the car recovery people...
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  #442  
Old 21.07.2008, 01:12
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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If they only do 100-200 km, then not the car recovery people...
About the 100-200km range. Since you will plug-in your electric car into the power grid each night at home with a regular power plug you will have to drive for 100-200km on a single day to get into such a situation.

This means that most people won't need to go to refueling stations at all.

On how many days a year do you drive over 200km?
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  #443  
Old 21.07.2008, 01:35
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Switzerland makes 80% of its electricity from pollution-free hydroelectric and the rest from nuclear. So with a range of 200 miles, these electric cars could work here. But what about the rest of the world? A solution has to be practical and work world wide, without putting millions out of work...
You have to remember that 200 mile range is, practically speaking, 200 miles in any 24 hour period - to allow for a recharge - and in ideal conditions. So you can't really go more than 100 miles in any direction, assuming you want to make a return trip. Even in a small country like Switzerland, 100 miles isn't particularly far (admittedly I'm from Australia, so my idea of "far" is probably somewhat skewed, but even adjusting for the density of Europe, 100 miles seems pretty close).

To put it in a real-life context , I'd be surprised if one of these electric cars would have sufficient range to allow for a day trip to the ski slopes from Zurich.

Battery-swap stations can mitigate the range issue to some extent, but the practicalities of them mean they would only be found in large centres. Having to keep hundreds (if not thousands) of battery packs on-hand represents a significant chunk of (depreciating) capital to the owner, to say nothing of the electricity required to keep them charging 24/7, extra maintenance costs to ensure they're still working and the sheer space needed to (securely, at $thousands each they will be ripe for theft) store them.

This is also before getting into the economics around swapping battery packs. Depending on how they're used, they will degrade at different rates - so the battery pack you swap in might only have 80% of the range of the one you swapped out. Not only is the somewhat unpredictable range problematic, but there's also the issue that a major component in your car potentially being significantly devalued because you "filled up" (imagine someone swapping the engine in your 3-month old car with one from a 5-year old car - how would you feel ?). Handling it in a "fair" manner is not simple (consider insurance - how much your electric car is worth will depend a lot on the state of the battery), and demonstrating to customers that it is fair (eg: that light users are not significantly subsidising heavy users) would be harder still.

There are major issues with every aspect of the widespread usage of electrical vehicles. Personally, I don't think they're worth it.
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  #444  
Old 21.07.2008, 01:45
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I disagree. Let's wait 5 more years and electric cars will be at least as popular as hybrids today.
Electric cars will remain a niche. I'd be happy to slap down a thousand chuff note on that bet. I'd be amazed if they are ever as popular as hybrids.

There is just way, way too much investment in the infrastructure involved in petrol-powered vehicles (which can be leveraged for certain fuel alternatives) and way, way too much money that would need to be spent making electric cars even remotely practical.

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Today, battery technology (Due to laptop battery development) is far more efficient than when the EV1 was built.
The movie is a little long for me to watch (although I do know the story of the EV1), but it's not just about the capacity of batteries. There's a whole host of other logistical problems (from economics to simple space requirements) surrounding their use.

Especially in countries where it's nearly impossible for most people to live their day to day lives without a car (eg: the US, Australia), the electric car is a non-starter.
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  #445  
Old 21.07.2008, 09:19
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Well, time will tell. I don't see why they shouldn't get popular. After all, your fuel costs would virtually be free.


(Sorry, it's shouldn't and not should :-)

Last edited by xapadoo; 21.07.2008 at 09:46.
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  #446  
Old 21.07.2008, 09:28
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Well, time will tell. I don't see why they should get popular. After all, your fuel costs would virtually be free.
Don't worry about that someone will find a way to charge high for the charging of the batteries, which is not free. Already electricity charges are going up - however compared to oil the fuel cost is very low sure.

What I want to see is a 2 hour charge-time or less and a 400 mile range. Then one can consider trips to England from Switzerland, stopping for a extended lunch and being charged by the restaurant or hotel or wherever you stop for two hours electricity for the charge.

Once we have that range, then I believe you will have high popularity.
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  #447  
Old 21.07.2008, 09:35
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Please explain, who will it put out of work?
Those working for petrol companies...
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  #448  
Old 21.07.2008, 09:48
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Don't worry about that someone will find a way to charge high for the charging of the batteries, which is not free. Already electricity charges are going up - however compared to oil the fuel cost is very low sure.

What I want to see is a 2 hour charge-time or less and a 400 mile range. Then one can consider trips to England from Switzerland, stopping for a extended lunch and being charged by the restaurant or hotel or wherever you stop for two hours electricity for the charge.

Once we have that range, then I believe you will have high popularity.
Exactly!

How about charging or even powering like my electric toothbrush? Run electricity cables under the road surface and power/recharge from them?

Until the range and recharge time and where the electricity comes from has been sorted, I don't see electric cars as viable. Currently the future would seem to be with ever smaller and more efficient petrol / diesel and perhaps hybrids.

VW are rumoured to be bringing out hybrid versions of the Golf and Polo with the Audi A3 to follow. The Golf version would have a 7-speed DSG automatic transmission and fuel consumption of 3.4L/100km or 69mpg (U.S.). 83.1mpg (UK) and emitting 89g/km of carbon dioxide. How much of this is marketing and how much environment, with the Prius battery scandal, remains to be seen
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  #449  
Old 21.07.2008, 10:00
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Perhaps a very small motor more like a generator with a 5 gallon tank, could be used as the battery charger, this would boost the range of an electric car.

However I don't see that as the end solution but just a stepping stone, on route to new roads, which could have power source built in.

Unfortunately the combined inertia of the fuel companies and car giants, as always until now stamped on anything that would render them obsolete - quite naturally of course.
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  #450  
Old 21.07.2008, 10:05
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Those working for petrol companies...
I guess you or one of your relatives works in that business then. Ok, fair enough.
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  #451  
Old 21.07.2008, 12:37
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I just had a thought...
Imagine a world where every road that was built had an overhead power cable and you could run cars like trams from the mains voltage without having batteries - even more efficiency as there's no power lost through charging batteries and you don't have to drive the weight of them around. I'd maybe put a 50 km battery in the car anyway in case of local power outages and it can charge as slowly as you like while you're driving around off the mains.
If we can put in the infrastructure for street lights on most roads, then it wouldn't be that much harder.
Even if it did mean your car looked like a dodgem...
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  #452  
Old 21.07.2008, 12:43
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Even if it did mean your car looked like a dodgem...
That would be awsome, motorway pile-ups wouldn't seem so serious.
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  #453  
Old 21.07.2008, 12:43
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I just had a thought...
Imagine a world where every road that was built had an overhead power cable and you could run cars like trams from the mains voltage without having batteries - even more efficiency as there's no power lost through charging batteries and you don't have to drive the weight of them around. I'd maybe put a 50 km battery in the car anyway in case of local power outages and it can charge as slowly as you like while you're driving around off the mains.
If we can put in the infrastructure for street lights on most roads, then it wouldn't be that much harder.
Even if it did mean your car looked like a dodgem...
Don't make it harder than it already is
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  #454  
Old 21.07.2008, 12:51
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Acabion.com in Root is envisioning things like hi-speed tracks and vacuum tunnels whereby the power is built into the road, as you say it is not rocket science, and as Dr Peter Maskus says all the parts have been known about for years, nothing new needs to be brought to the table, except a will to do it that way.

The Japanese Tokaido Shinkansen train system has proved the way over 38 years.

http://www.hitachi-rail.com/rail_now...dex/index.html
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  #455  
Old 21.07.2008, 12:58
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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If we can put in the infrastructure for street lights on most roads, then it wouldn't be that much harder.
Don't get out of the city much, I take it .
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  #456  
Old 21.07.2008, 13:03
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Don't get out of the city much, I take it .
Don't even have a car....
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  #457  
Old 21.07.2008, 13:09
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I just had a thought...
Imagine a world where every road that was built had an overhead power cable and you could run cars like trams from the mains voltage without having batteries - even more efficiency as there's no power lost through charging batteries and you don't have to drive the weight of them around. I'd maybe put a 50 km battery in the car anyway in case of local power outages and it can charge as slowly as you like while you're driving around off the mains.
If we can put in the infrastructure for street lights on most roads, then it wouldn't be that much harder.
Even if it did mean your car looked like a dodgem...
Overtaking?

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  #458  
Old 21.07.2008, 20:36
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Electric cars will remain a niche. I'd be happy to slap down a thousand chuff note on that bet. I'd be amazed if they are ever as popular as hybrids.
It's a good thing for you that your bet is vaguely worded.

What happens when there is no more petroleum? There will be no more hybrids, let alone ICE vehicles. Growing crops for fuel is an energetic dead end, which would leave electricity.
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  #459  
Old 21.07.2008, 20:44
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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There are major issues with every aspect of the widespread usage of electrical vehicles. Personally, I don't think they're worth it.
I take it that when there is no more petroleum, or the price of the remaining stuff is unaffordable, you'll give up cars for good?

I agree that, at present, battery packs are expensive. There are interesting technologies on the horizon, but they are not delivered as yet.

I wonder if there is any merit in the idea of battery packs being exchanged in the same way as propane bottles. Or of different capacities.

It seems silly to have to pay the full price of a 200km range battery when you never do more than, say, 50km in a day.
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  #460  
Old 21.07.2008, 21:35
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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It's a good thing for you that your bet is vaguely worded.

What happens when there is no more petroleum? There will be no more hybrids, let alone ICE vehicles. Growing crops for fuel is an energetic dead end, which would leave electricity.
And where does electricty come from??
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