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  #481  
Old 23.07.2008, 07:31
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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What kind of cop out answer is that? You state that electricity is the future when there is no more petroleum - and of course natural gas goes hand in hand.
IMO in keeping with the question.

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Thus when you look at the figures for Europe and the fact that most electric generation is driven by heat engines. The combustion of fossil fuels supplies most of the heat to these engines.

In 2005, USA produced at least 25% of the world's electricity, and 75% of this is by coal, oil and gas.*

What I am saying is that, as presently generated by the majority of countries, electricity is neither clean, nor does it wean us off fossil fuels. In fact without fossil fuels, electricity is not possible for most countries...

*www.allcountries.org/uscensus/1391_net_electricity_generation_by_type_and.html
A much better effort than your previous, facetious one.
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  #482  
Old 23.07.2008, 07:38
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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How much trouble would someone get into if they did this today and ran their car off of the tram/trolleybus network in town?
Surely you'd be fine if you installed an electricity meter under the odometer.
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  #483  
Old 23.07.2008, 07:50
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Thanks for marking my post, Sir. Pity it still didn't get an answer!
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A much better effort than your previous, facetious one.
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What happens when there is no more petroleum? There will be no more hybrids, let alone ICE vehicles. Growing crops for fuel is an energetic dead end, which would leave electricity.
Yes, it would "leave electricity". It would leave electricity up the preverbial creek without a paddle...
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  #484  
Old 23.07.2008, 09:38
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Regarding Beasties: “What happens when there is no more petroleum? There will be no more hybrids, let alone ICE vehicles. Growing crops for fuel is an energetic dead end, which would leave electricity.” Line. I was told by a bloke whom I believe that there it is expected that the technology required to turn any/most vegetable matter (e.g. tree branches, pine cones, grass cuttings) into fuel is about 5 years away. This, he tells me, will relieve the ethanol production issues as well as the Oil problem. I don’t know where it is on Co2 emissions. Now, I absolutely believe him so my comment to Bestie is that he’s behind the curve technologically but my question to EF is, has anyone else heard of this?
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  #485  
Old 23.07.2008, 12:14
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Yes, it would "leave electricity". It would leave electricity up the preverbial creek without a paddle...
The trends I've heard of, as an environmental science PhD student, are to go to some sort of electric-based car, whether it's battery-powered or more along the lines of ColonelBoris' idea, with centrally generated electricity. It's far easier to regulate smokestacks from a few power plants than to regulate everyone's tailpipes. As to the source of the electricity, for now I've heard of sticking with "the best we can": coal, natural gas, etc. with the best environmental technology at hand. For the long-term, however, I would argue that our best source of power is solar energy, but no government wants to overhaul their energy/power infrastructure enough to incorporate expensive solar panels.

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I was told by a bloke whom I believe that there it is expected that the technology required to turn any/most vegetable matter (e.g. tree branches, pine cones, grass cuttings) into fuel is about 5 years away.
The idea of getting power from any vegetable matter is not so new, but it's a real scientific challenge. The idea is to produce "cellulosic ethanol" by mimicking microbes or creating chemicals/microbes to do the conversion for us. Currently, it's a negative net energy balance (takes more energy than it produces), and I think it's been "about 5 years away" for at least 10 years (as long as I've been paying attention to it). A friend is starting a postdoc with Livermore National Lab (US) to work on this, though, so there's definitely research $$ being thrown at the problem.
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  #486  
Old 23.07.2008, 13:23
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Great signature you got there cfarns
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  #487  
Old 23.07.2008, 13:44
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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The trends I've heard of, as an environmental science PhD student, are to go to some sort of electric-based car, whether it's battery-powered or more along the lines of ColonelBoris' idea, with centrally generated electricity. It's far easier to regulate smokestacks from a few power plants than to regulate everyone's tailpipes. As to the source of the electricity, for now I've heard of sticking with "the best we can": coal, natural gas, etc. with the best environmental technology at hand. For the long-term, however, I would argue that our best source of power is solar energy, but no government wants to overhaul their energy/power infrastructure enough to incorporate expensive solar panels.
The biggest problem with Solar is that it's like a Government worker - only productive about 6-7 hours a day and only useful if you're in exactly the right place.
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  #488  
Old 23.07.2008, 18:27
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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The biggest problem with Solar is that it's like a Government worker - only productive about 6-7 hours a day and only useful if you're in exactly the right place.
Yes, that is also very true.
I don't question the fact that we can't have 7/24 electricity from solar panels (yet), to me it's a question of doing a series of "first steps" in order say for me to be able to have my plugged in appliances (2 frigs + freezers + evtl aircon) off the grid during daytime peak load hours. Multiply that by thousands and you have created some sizeable reserve in the primary, fossil generated capacity.
Then add whatever we will be able to create in form of addtly - wind farms, tide generator farms, lake-bed generators, biomass gas plants - and we will be slowly but surely reducing fossil fuel consumption, etc.

Paul
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  #489  
Old 23.07.2008, 20:22
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

¨
so we have the "how do we generate electricity without fossil fuels" argument ... how about this :

Solar power from Saharan sun could provide Europe's electricity

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Speaking at the Euroscience Open Forum in Barcelona, Arnulf Jaeger-Walden of the European commission's Institute for Energy, said it would require the capture of just 0.3% of the light falling on the Sahara and Middle East deserts to meet all of Europe's energy needs.

The scientists are calling for the creation of a series of huge solar farms - producing electricity either through photovoltaic cells, or by concentrating the sun's heat to boil water and drive turbines - as part of a plan to share Europe's renewable energy resources across the continent.

A new supergrid, transmitting electricity along high voltage direct current cables would allow countries such as the UK and Denmark ultimately to export wind energy at times of surplus supply, as well as import from other green sources such as geothermal power in Iceland.
& all for £35 Bn !!!

invest my tax money please .....
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  #490  
Old 23.07.2008, 20:28
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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¨
so we have the "how do we generate electricity without fossil fuels" argument ... how about this :

Solar power from Saharan sun could provide Europe's electricity



& all for £35 Bn !!!

invest my tax money please .....
No, we cannot do that. That would be far too easy!

I want summin' more complicated, and please with some oil or gas involved...
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  #491  
Old 23.07.2008, 20:45
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I sure enjoy reading the posts of this great website and today was just browsing a bit always looking for the great information I always find in the englishforum when I found this thread. It cought my attention because I just recently finish reading a book called "State of fear" by Michael Crichton. I was a firm believer of Global Warming, but I am not anymore since I finished the book. A bit of research and my own thinking after the book helped for that and what the real thing I am living is. The price of petrol, I just ask myself who is making the huge profits? I know who are. Big brother is watching and laughfing but not taking care of us!
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  #492  
Old 23.07.2008, 20:58
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I sure enjoy reading the posts of this great website and today was just browsing a bit always looking for the great information I always find in the englishforum when I found this thread. It cought my attention because I just recently finish reading a book called "State of fear" by Michael Crichton. I was a firm believer of Global Warming, but I am not anymore since I finished the book. A bit of research and my own thinking after the book helped for that and what the real thing I am living is. The price of petrol, I just ask myself who is making the huge profits? I know who are. Big brother is watching and laughfing but not taking care of us!
Ask yourself whether big brother would like you to believe in global warming and thus using less of his oil, or whether big brother would be happy to selling you as much oil as he can - especially at 100$+ per barrel.
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Old 23.07.2008, 21:07
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Well, thats what we pay, right ,but it doesnt cost that much, because the oil producing countries close to Europe sell the oil for 1/5 to the people living there. By the way if I can walk I will do it, instead of taking a car or a bus!
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  #494  
Old 23.07.2008, 21:14
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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¨
so we have the "how do we generate electricity without fossil fuels" argument ... how about this :

Solar power from Saharan sun could provide Europe's electricity



& all for £35 Bn !!!

invest my tax money please .....
Awesomeness indeed, but what about energy security? that would be an awful lot of area to watch over and I wouldn't put it past any of the OPEC countries to try and put an end to it as the demand for oil reduces...
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  #495  
Old 23.07.2008, 21:21
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Awesomeness indeed, but what about energy security? that would be an awful lot of area to watch over and I wouldn't put it past any of the OPEC countries to try and put an end to it as the demand for oil reduces...
as I already said in a completely unrelated (now locked) thread ... "there are always dissenters that are willing to moan at the drop of the proverbial hat" ... not saying that about you Boris ..... I just know that you are a nit picking scientist ****

Beers ?
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  #496  
Old 23.07.2008, 21:28
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Awesomeness indeed, but what about energy security? that would be an awful lot of area to watch over and I wouldn't put it past any of the OPEC countries to try and put an end to it as the demand for oil reduces...
We don't need to put the solar plants in the Sahara. One third of Spain is already considered desert, and if that's not enough then place some in Greece and Sicily.

(OK, maybe not Sicily ;-)
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  #497  
Old 23.07.2008, 22:54
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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as I already said in a completely unrelated (now locked) thread ... "there are always dissenters that are willing to moan at the drop of the proverbial hat" ... not saying that about you Boris ..... I just know that you are a nit picking scientist ****

Beers ?
I'm not saying that's a reason not to go ahead with the scheme - just something to watch for. Not only that, it could be advantageous to the locals as there would be a lot of local security jobs on offer...
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  #498  
Old 24.07.2008, 07:27
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I'm not saying that's a reason not to go ahead with the scheme - just something to watch for. Not only that, it could be advantageous to the locals as there would be a lot of local security jobs on offer...
faire enough ... just to put this into perspective though ... the Cross Rail project in London is about to get a thumbs up from the government, at a cost of £16Bn .... so £32Bn investment by Europe is small change ......

I know, lets form a committee & *******ise it til its dead .......
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Old 24.07.2008, 07:40
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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¨
so we have the "how do we generate electricity without fossil fuels" argument ... how about this :

Solar power from Saharan sun could provide Europe's electricity



& all for £35 Bn !!!

invest my tax money please .....
A nice solution, but...

Who actually owns the Sahara?

Algeria
Chad
Egypt
Libya
Morocco
Mauritania
Mali
Niger
Sudan
Tunisia
Western Sahara

Does this sound like a secure group where Europe should place its future engergy needs??
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Old 24.07.2008, 07:55
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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A nice solution, but...

Who actually owns the Sahara?

Algeria
Chad
Egypt
Libya
Morocco
Mauritania
Mali
Niger
Sudan
Tunisia
Western Sahara

Does this sound like a secure group where Europe should place its future engergy needs??
ahhh ... the proverbial hat ...

Algeria & Tunisia are certainly in the running, as is Egypt, all with close ties to Europe (France) in trade deals, investment etc.

As pointed out by Boris, security is a huge issue for something like this, however the offset of local employment & the fact that these countries will be selling electricty is potentially a huge economic carrot.

I assume that in your usual tortuous way, you are just looking to discuss & not decry ?

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