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  #41  
Old 15.03.2007, 21:40
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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and that removes all credibility from anything you say.
I think you have summarised things very nicely for me there. Jamesk did manage to stir things up a bit for a while. Got his post count up.
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  #42  
Old 16.03.2007, 11:00
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Nice provocation! James, you are right by stating that CO2 is not the only problem but it is by far the biggest. Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), methane, nitrous oxide, ozone contribute with 50% to the man-made effects. The other 50% is due to CO2. The CO2 elevation is not 5% as you suggest. It increased since the beginning of the industrialization by 30%. Such a dramatic increase in CO2 was never recored in 160 000 years of CO2 history. Nobody can prove that this increase is man-made but no reasonable scientist doubts it.

By the way in the lab the glasshouse effect of different gases is measurable. So have fun with emptying the bottles for your experiment. Hmmm, sorry to tell you, it won't work. Remember GLASShouse effect...
I didn't say that CO2 is not the ONLY problem, I said that it is NOT (repeat NOT, NOT, NOT) the problem. Nothing to do with the problem - it's a mechanism of diverting attention AWAY from the REAL man made problems that we are faced with.

This is a chart that looks at the green house effect:

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html


Note: The chart show that 0.28% of the alleged 'greenhouse' effect is due to human activity, unless you exclude water vapor.

Remember, it is an assumption that there is a 'green house' effect that is powerful enough to raise that temperature of the earth as you can with a garden green house. The earth is not like a green-house, it is not surrounded by glass. There is nothing 'surrounding' the earth that reflects back all heat.

Again look at the saudi desert, note how cold it gets at night - if there was 'something' mysterious glass like reflective properties then it wouldn't get so cold would it?

Even if this assumption was correct, it is still NOT physically possible to raise global temperature, certainly not to levels that would endanger life on earth. The notion that the presence of CO2 gas in the air can magically raise global temperature is absurd.

In the lab the 'greenhouse' effect of different gases may be measurable, but it is insignificant, probably undetectable in the crude experiment I suggested with the glass bottles - even of you use small greenhouses to replace the bottles.

How much energy do you think would be needed to raise the entire earth temperature (day and night, all over the planet) by 1 degree?

As I see it, CO2 levels are related to the respiration of living things on earth - as things evolve there is a gradual shift from anerobic to aerobic metabolism. So you would expect a gradual increase as the planet evolves.

At an early stage we would have been 'breathing' CO2 like gases (as plants do), at a certain point we probably developed gills (assuming we evolved from water), then lungs. Now we breath O2, and generate CO2 because of the simple process of metabolism - as do all warm blooded creatures. This is a process that happens continiously in nature - all species repeat it.

The burning of fossil fuels also creates CO2, but that is a small fraction of the CO2 compared with that generated by living things.

Can you provide some figures, charts for this elevation of CO2 levels since industrialization?

Can you provide a simple experiment to demonstrate that CO2 has an ability to raise the temeratute of the earth - a feat that the sun can't do?

It would need to be super-dooper, comic book style effect - a 0.000001 increase is not what i'm looking for.
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  #43  
Old 16.03.2007, 11:14
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

FUNFACTS about CARBON DIOXIDE

Of the 186 billion tons of CO2 that enter earth's atmosphere each year from all sources, only 6 billion tons are from human activity. Approximately 90 billion tons come from biologic activity in earth's oceans and another 90 billion tons from such sources as volcanoes and decaying land plants.

At 368 parts per million CO2 is a minor constituent of earth's atmosphere-- less than 4/100ths of 1% of all gases present. Compared to former geologic times, earth's current atmosphere is CO2- impoverished.

CO2 is odorless, colorless, and tasteless. Plants absorb CO2 and emit oxygen as a waste product. Humans and animals breathe oxygen and emit CO2 as a waste product. Carbon dioxide is a nutrient, not a pollutant, and all life-- plants and animals alike-- benefit from more of it. All life on earth is carbon-based and CO2 is an essential ingredient. When plant-growers want to stimulate plant growth, they introduce more carbon dioxide.

CO2 that goes into the atmosphere does not stay there but is continually recycled by terrestrial plant life and earth's oceans-- the great retirement home for most terrestrial carbon dioxide.


Source: http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html#anchor2108263
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  #44  
Old 16.03.2007, 12:51
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

it's all me mate, Micheal's fault. He can't stop farting.
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  #45  
Old 16.03.2007, 13:12
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

A 'warning' to households from the Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770


Imagine the future in the UK:

1. You get regular visits from agents of Big Brother - "You are using a tungestan light bulb, not approved by the Party - we found one in the atic. You will be recommended for corrective treatment...."

2. You get a letter: "Our surveilance showed that you made 3 journeys on your car instead of two on monday 23 Jan, 20XX, a total of 4 KM instead of your allowance of 3km per day. This is a very serious offense. You are to attend...."

3. You are stopped at Heathrow: "We note that you took additional flights after landing at Majorca for your allowed 1 week holiday, contrary to the restrictions on air travel as per the Greenhouse Act. This is a serious offence, and your first warning and a fine of xxxx. If repeated, we will take away your Passport"

.....
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  #46  
Old 16.03.2007, 13:39
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

"Researchers sceptical about projections of human-induced climate change base their criticism partly on what they see as flawed simulations of water vapour and clouds.
So will this discovery force a re-evaluation of climate models? William Ingram, from the UK's Meteorological Office and Oxford University, believes not.
"This careful study confirms that this aspect of the climate system is behaving broadly as expected," he told the BBC News website. "It is therefore consistent with projections by the scientific consensus."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4419880.stm

James, you can also blame a crash-landing UFO if you want
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/russi...ent_10205.html
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  #47  
Old 16.03.2007, 17:58
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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A 'warning' to households from the Daily Mail:

.....
Oh it must be true then. No exagerations there surely.....
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  #48  
Old 16.03.2007, 18:03
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Indeed, the Daily Mail is a well known champion of rigorous science, remember the MMR scare...
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  #49  
Old 16.03.2007, 23:00
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I think you have summarised things very nicely for me there. Jamesk did manage to stir things up a bit for a while. Got his post count up.
Interesting that you pick up on this, even though i had responded to it by saying that it is an incredible, impossible to accept claim. It's similar to the stuff comic books, or religious books.

The onus for proving something is so completely outside the physical experience of the majority is on the person that makes the incredible allegation.

If I say that I've invented a liquid that you put into your petrol and it gives you a million miles to the gallon - then I need to prove that it does this.

I can't say that you need to prove that it doesn't. You can quite clearly see that it doesn't, you put the liquid in your petrol and it does bugger all, the same for

The chemical properties of CO2 are well known. The alleged ability to heat up the entire earth is NOT one of those known properties.
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  #50  
Old 16.03.2007, 23:06
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Oh it must be true then. No exagerations there surely.....
Newspapers, TV, etc are often used as a means to get the public to accept what is planned.

Read between the lines - imagine the future where the state can snoop inside your house (using the excuse about these mythically powerful abilities of CO2), restrict your movements, track you where ever you go, tax you on this and that.
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  #51  
Old 16.03.2007, 23:17
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Indeed, the Daily Mail is a well known champion of rigorous science, remember the MMR scare...
What about the MMR scare?

So you believe that an injection of Mercury, Chick Embryo, Neomycin, Formaldehyde, aluminum phosphate, etc, is good for you children?

Presumably because the experts tell you that these injections are good and absolutely essential - and such is the faith you have in your modern day Gods that you will poison your own kids, and demand that everyone else does the same.
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  #52  
Old 16.03.2007, 23:33
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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The chemical properties of CO2 are well known. The alleged ability to heat up the entire earth is NOT one of those known properties.
According to climate scientists it IS a known property.

You've been making a lot of statements that you haven't backed up with data.

Let me ask you a question in order to find out if you think that CO2 in the air contributes AT ALL to a greenhouse effect.

Take two empty, 1L screw cap bottles, (with the caps). Also, take a couple of thermometers. Pierce the caps with holes about the right size for the thermometers. Put a few cm of tap water in each bottle.

In one bottle, fit the cap and insert the thermometer bulb. Use blu tac to fix the thermometer and seal the cap.

To the other bottle, add some crumbled alka seltzer and let it dissolve. The bubbles are CO2 gas. Wait 10 minutes or so because the chemical reaction that produces the gas affects the temperature of the water, air and bottle. Add the remaining cap to the remaining bottle, insert the second thermometer and seal with blu tac.

Now point a sun ray lamp at the bottles. Periodically note the temperature recorded by the thermometers and the time they are noted.

You should find that the temperature inside the second bottle will record
a higher temperature than the other one.

This is the greenhouse effect.

Do you deny this effect? (I'm not suggesting that this proves global warming).
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  #53  
Old 16.03.2007, 23:34
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I knew it

Is there anything which is not some kind of conspiracy in your eyes...? Let me guess, the moon landing was a fake too...?

Re your "experts Gods" jibe, let me see, on one hand I do have people who worked all their lives in their field of science, presenting me with the best possible evidence, on the other an anonymous nutter on the internet with zero evidence, zero credibility...I'm going to trust my instincts on this one and side with the former and let the latter bang on about conspiracies based on out of context quotations and pseudo-science.

Knock yourself out...
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  #54  
Old 16.03.2007, 23:38
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Global warming is a load of hot air.
Yes...the so called 'solutions' to this 'problem' though are very real.

By focusing all attention on CO2 (=public enemy no1), you can:

1. Implement a Big Brother surveillance society that would have had the Nazi's salivating over. You can only take the 'Terrorist' card so far....

2. Get the public to ignore the millions and millions of tons of very real toxic chemicals that are dumped on the environment by big business - into the air we breath, the water we drink and the food we eat.

3. Still make a killing by getting the max possible profits from that last remains of the global fossil fuels that you control.
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  #55  
Old 16.03.2007, 23:48
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Big Brother society is certainly something many govt would like to implement but it is doomed to failure, too many of us, too many means of communication and ultimately it is against human nature. Most importantly govts do not have the means to implement this, they can't even have basic services run properly nevermind an all encompassing surveillance apparatus. That said, we need to be vigilant.

There is no need to invent a conspiracy to explain that oil companies and speculators will make a killing on trading a dwindling ressource, it's basic supply/demand stuff.
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  #56  
Old 17.03.2007, 00:15
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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According to climate scientists it IS a known property.

You've been making a lot of statements that you haven't backed up with data.

Let me ask you a question in order to find out if you think that CO2 in the air contributes AT ALL to a greenhouse effect.

Take two empty, 1L screw cap bottles, (with the caps). Also, take a couple of thermometers. Pierce the caps with holes about the right size for the thermometers. Put a few cm of tap water in each bottle.

In one bottle, fit the cap and insert the thermometer bulb. Use blu tac to fix the thermometer and seal the cap.

To the other bottle, add some crumbled alka seltzer and let it dissolve. The bubbles are CO2 gas. Wait 10 minutes or so because the chemical reaction that produces the gas affects the temperature of the water, air and bottle. Add the remaining cap to the remaining bottle, insert the second thermometer and seal with blu tac.

Now point a sun ray lamp at the bottles. Periodically note the temperature recorded by the thermometers and the time they are noted.

You should find that the temperature inside the second bottle will record
a higher temperature than the other one.

This is the greenhouse effect.

Do you deny this effect? (I'm not suggesting that this proves global warming).
Well the 'climate scientists' are telling lies.

In earlier post i've explained this. Lets summarize:

a) The earth is NOT like a green house. It does not have a 'glass' like layer surrounding it that reflects back heat as a green house does not letting the heat escape.

b) When you get water in the atmosphere (ie clouds), it does reflect back heat (ie temporary greenhouse effect) - which is why evenings with a clear, cloudless sky will be cold, when you have cloud cover, it will be warmer.

c) Water (H2O, whether in the air as gas or in the sea or in our bodies - we too are 70% water remember), and all organic substances (including CO2 and other Carbon containing substances like protein, fat, oil) absorb FIR (which is the heating band of sunlight) because the have a resonant frequency in the range 10-16 microns. Water though is the most important as it is the most abundant.

I've suggested a simple experiment similar to the one you suggest, which models the earth a bit better:

Take two miniature green houses. Earth is 70% water, so fill both with enough water to model this. Put a few mice, and some plants/vegetation in both as well.

Have a radiant heat source equidistant from them, that you switch on for say 12 hours, then off for 12. Monitor the temperature in both. Introduce CO2 in one of them, starting with 5%. This 5% would would need to adjusted for the mass of the earth and the volume of its atmosphere relative its CO2 gas content.

So the actual % of CO2 you'd need as compared with the volume of the greenhouse would be something like 0.00000000000000000001%

Continue increasing the CO2 content to say 50%, and note any temperature change.

Result: ????????

I reckon that you will not be able to measure any difference in temperature between the two greenhouses.
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  #57  
Old 17.03.2007, 08:32
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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So you believe that CO2 has a magical effect of raising the air temperature, a unique property not found in any other gas known to man.

Why don't you get a container of CO2 and use it to cut down on your heating bills?

If a little CO2 can heat the entire earth, then why aren't we using it for some local warming? Why don't we trap some of the CO2 released by cars, planes, industrial plants and use it to heat our homes?

Because CO2 does not have any heating effect.

If a scientist can demonstrate that CO2 has a miraculous ability to heat the entire globe, that would be the scientific discovery of the century, surpassing all else that has been discovered by man.
I am wondering whether there were any science classes at your school. I used to be a science teacher many years ago and I sometimes think that the whole field of science education fell apart maybe 30 years ago and that you are a victim of this betrayal to education.

CO2 absorbs IR radiation and emits it. This is to be expected of a three-atom molecule due to the added degrees of vibrational motion possible in the molecule. If something absorbs IR radiation and emits it then you will have a greenhouse effect. Take glass in greenhouses, for example. Glass absorb IR radiation and emits it. In both directions. That is why greenhouses get warm.

If you want to see the absorbsion curves of CO2 in the IR and see the simulations of the vibrational state of the molecule then look at this page.

http://science.widener.edu/svb/ftir/ir_co2.html
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  #58  
Old 17.03.2007, 10:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I am wondering whether there were any science classes at your school. I used to be a science teacher many years ago and I sometimes think that the whole field of science education fell apart maybe 30 years ago and that you are a victim of this betrayal to education.

CO2 absorbs IR radiation and emits it. This is to be expected of a three-atom molecule due to the added degrees of vibrational motion possible in the molecule. If something absorbs IR radiation and emits it then you will have a greenhouse effect. Take glass in greenhouses, for example. Glass absorb IR radiation and emits it. In both directions. That is why greenhouses get warm.

If you want to see the absorbsion curves of CO2 in the IR and see the simulations of the vibrational state of the molecule then look at this page.

http://science.widener.edu/svb/ftir/ir_co2.html
I'm not saying that CO2 does not absorb IR (or rather FIR, Far Infrared, which is the heating band of sunlight), I'm saying that the amount it absorbs and reflects in minuscule as compared to the other substances on earth that absorb and reflect IR.

Water, being 70% of earth, is the most important. But every organic substance (all carbon, your cells, etc) absorbs and emits IR.

Those simulation curves that you pointed to exist for virtually all substances that exist on earth, IR absorption and reflection is not a property unique to CO2.

99.99999% of the 'green house' effect is due to water - ie cloud cover. This cloud cover (ie the water cycle that is responsible for life on earth) has existed for billions of years, It is not responsible for so called 'Global Warming' or 'Global Cooling'.

Climate change is related to the activity of the sun.

Yes, the education system is to be blamed for the fact that the public is so easily misled. The 'education system' is not an education system, but an 'Indoctrination System'. People are taught not to think for themselves, but to just believe what the 'experts' (like the high Priests, or Gods of old) say is true.
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  #59  
Old 17.03.2007, 11:26
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

So everybody is wrong and you are right because you can see beyond the veil of deceit and lies...Give yourself a pat on the back and keep taking the medicine
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  #60  
Old 17.03.2007, 19:39
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Hi

There was a wonderful programme in TV - BBC in UK - a week ago very interesting explaining the origin of global warming. Any scinetist watching that programme straightaway I'm sure started looking at the subject. So clear relationship between the sun temperature, cosmic rays, clouds formation, sea temperature and earth temperature for decades is not a coincidence. The evidence is more than that. I think it's conclusive.
CO2 is not the direct cause of global warming neither the mankind and our luxuries.
But who can stop now the machine and all the money invested on it...

Well, time will tell...

Pitty if you didn't have the chance of watching it.

Regards Caracola
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