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  #761  
Old 29.11.2009, 22:18
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Actually none of the "scientific data" is refuted at all.

Kind of hard to refute data that hasn't been publicly released, or worse, deleted.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6936328.ece

I tried to write a couple of comments about this thread, but cancelled them because they appeared to gloat. Instead, let me just say -

Stay awake people! Don't believe everything you hear! Question "Authority"!
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  #762  
Old 29.11.2009, 23:38
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

"highly disturbing series of emails which show how Dr Jones and his colleagues have for years been discussing the devious tactics whereby they could avoid releasing their data to outsiders under freedom of information laws.

They have come up with every possible excuse for concealing the background data on which their findings and temperature records were based."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...eneration.html

I tend to be believe that the Earth is getting warmer though. I see that the glaciers of my country are disappearing.

This TED video demonstrates it:
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  #763  
Old 30.11.2009, 00:07
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I tend to be believe that the Earth is getting warmer though. I see that the glaciers of my country are disappearing.

No doubt that the earth is always either getting warmer or getting cooler. The issue is whether the cause is what the scientists have decided to conjure up, namely anthropologically generated carbon dioxide. For example, many have pointed out that more carbon dioxide is generated by volcanic activities than by all human activity put together, yet such dissenters are routinely silenced and marginalized.

What is demonstrated here is how the "scientific" community is quite capable of falsifying their findings, and conspiring against those who do not agree with them, all in order to advance some agenda. This loss of credibility has probably torpedoed any chance that the US would sign up for any accord, such as Copenhagen. Other countries may also pull out of the scam.
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  #764  
Old 06.12.2009, 12:10
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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  #765  
Old 06.12.2009, 12:51
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Climate Change - Is Real

Where were all of these people almost a decade ago when climate change was continually denied by government? Where was the reasoned debate then? Exactly the same claims were made by the other side then.

The problem is that climate change is real. The question that everyone seems to be trying hard not to answer is what is actually happening and what should we or can we do about it.

I was a denier until about 10 years ago when a scientist friend of mine showed me the data that he was using. I now know that climate change is a genuine problem and we should be concerned about it.

The current dilemma is being caused because so many Political parties are owned by certain interest groups. This is causing them to take certain stands or positions that are contrary to the information. They are acting against their best long term interests in order to secure their short term interests.

Of course the Real Truth is that we the wealthy portion of the worlds population won't be truly affected but just "Inconvenienced" as we will be able to move and control our immediate environment. It is the poor and poverty stricken areas of the world that will be hardest hit. But, I guess that doesn't matter as they can't vote here and don't have any money and don't control any oil.

So when we fail to understand what is really happening with regard to climate change what we are really saying is "**** the Poor and subsistence populations of the world, we don't care."

That is the real take home message from all of this. If we do care then we had better start trying to figure it out because those who are in these areas are telling us that the change is already happening and the results so far up till now aren't looking good.

Brian.
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  #766  
Old 06.12.2009, 20:29
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Earlier you wrote

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I tried to write a couple of comments about this thread, but cancelled them because they appeared to gloat.
But it must have been festering in your mind for a while, because later on, out it all came:

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The issue is whether the cause is what the scientists have decided to conjure up, namely anthropologically generated carbon dioxide.
And the rest of what follows, is, as usual, not backed up by any evidence.

"Have decided to conjure up" is rather contentious, don't you think? "May turn out to be wrong" is more likely in scientific terms anyway.

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For example, many have pointed out that more carbon dioxide is generated by volcanic activities than by all human activity put together, yet such dissenters are routinely silenced and marginalized.
"Silenced and marginalised"? What if they're just wrong? Maybe it's more that they're ignored because they are wrong. Any evidence for the volcanism claim?

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What is demonstrated here is how the "scientific" community is quite capable of falsifying their findings, and conspiring against those who do not agree with them, all in order to advance some agenda.
That is rather a sweeping statement. I suppose that also includes so-called Christian Scientists. Or did you not mean to imply the entire scientific community?

Of course falsification of data is not unheard of in science. Scientists are human after all. But at the level of conspiracy? It's not impossible, but it's going to be difficult to prove.

Your line of argument makes it difficult to continue to debate the issue. Once you start to accuse one camp of being dishonest, then the quality of debate degrades. What if I started to accuse all religious people of being pederasts? Remember that, despite the denials of the Catholic Church, it later turned out that some Catholic Ministers were indeed involved in kiddy-fiddling.

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This loss of credibility has probably torpedoed any chance that the US would sign up for any accord, such as Copenhagen. Other countries may also pull out of the scam.
Now Phos reveals himself to be an expert in International Relations too.

As usual, you are high in invective, but low on facts.
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  #767  
Old 06.12.2009, 20:57
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Now Phos reveals himself to be an expert in International Relations too.

As usual, you are high in invective, but low on facts.

I suppose your task would be marginally easier if you only had to debate with me. But objective facts are hard to argue with.

Apparently, the fraud extended beyond the University of East Aglia:
NASA hiding climate data


I'm just glad some people were intelligent enough not to succumb to the brainwash and fear.
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  #768  
Old 06.12.2009, 21:21
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I suppose your task would be marginally easier if you only had to debate with me. But objective facts are hard to argue with.
Agreed. Where are these difficult to argue with facts?
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  #769  
Old 06.12.2009, 21:41
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Agreed. Where are these difficult to argue with facts?
Well, first of all.... Anthropological Global Warming.... where is it?

Seriously BOB, let's wait a few more revelations before we get into it. To be honest with you, it would be tragic for the theory to be thrown out, but turns out in reality to be true. I simply want to make a point that one should not jump on or off some platform simply because it is labeled "science" or "religious". It doesn't demonstrate any critical thinking.
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  #770  
Old 06.12.2009, 21:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Well, first of all.... Anthropological Global Warming.... where is it?
I thought you might point out some of the "objective facts" from the article you quoted.

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Seriously BOB, let's wait a few more revelations before we get into it.
Revelations in what sense?

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To be honest with you, it would be tragic for the theory to be thrown out, but turns out in reality to be true.
I don't think you'll ever be satisified that AGW is as "true" as your religious beliefs are to you.

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I simply want to make a point that one should not jump on or off some platform simply because it is labeled "science" or "religious". It doesn't demonstrate any critical thinking.
I agree with that, but your most recent comments on this topic don't demonstrate much critical thinking either I'm afraid. Unless "Nyah Nyah Nyah-nyah-nyah" is acceptable.
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Old 06.12.2009, 21:57
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I read this interesting article the other day

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...ate-change.ars

But my take on it is, renewable energy is going to be a lot more cheaper than burning fossil fuels. Pollution is not only going to contribute to the greenhouse affect (FACT) but it doesn't help your lungs either. Whether or not it leads to global climate variances or not is not 100% clear but I know that if there was a chance the earth was going to be hit with a giant meteor, I'd want the governments of the world to at least have some sort of plan. Thats for sure
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Old 06.12.2009, 23:13
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I don't think you'll ever be satisified that AGW is as "true" as your religious beliefs are to you.
Hahaha.. that's some attempt to try to close down a thread that must be a source of embarrassment.

I have to say that unfailing belief of yours in an unfounded AGW has all the trappings of a religious cult in itself:

Climate-cult con is hard to 'bear'

I'm just glad the scammed failed at its attempt to tax and control the whole world.
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  #773  
Old 06.12.2009, 23:48
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I suppose your task would be marginally easier if you only had to debate with me. But objective facts are hard to argue with.

Apparently, the fraud extended beyond the University of East Aglia:
NASA hiding climate data


I'm just glad some people were intelligent enough not to succumb to the brainwash and fear.
You understand that all this information is over half a year old? This is hardly breaking news. Why did it take so long to get out? Is it just convenient that the Climate Conference is coming up? Or is it just obvious?

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I have to say that unfailing belief of yours in an unfounded AGW has all the trappings of a religious cult in itself:
Climate-cult con is hard to 'bear'
Please, don't say that you are using this article as a source of your information regarding the potential validity of Climate Control. This article is at best a poorly worded op-ed piece and at worst scaremongering and rubbish. Ooh, our children are being used against us? Is this before or after all of the BS about all of the other things that fanatics are actually using our children to promulgate? For example there is Intelligent Design, and other various right wing and left wing conspiracies? Next, people will start telling us that PETA actually loves animals? Great.

NB. Only politicians and the Media use Global Warming anymore. The science is already out that Global Warming is way too simplistic. It doesn't explain stuff properly and is too weak in its predictions. It is a start but doesn't cover all of the problems that we are starting to experience. Climate Change is much more accurate in terms of scope and definitions as well as being more correct in terms of predictable outcomes.

That is why the hacks are now screaming Global Warming. It doesn't explain things properly and it's use is obstructive to completely understanding what is going on and what needs to be done next. Of course that would suit the Nay Sayers just fine as they don't want to do anything. Just keep going as we are until things get so bad that we have to do something drastic. Then that would reflect the nature of most people. Don't fix it now when it is easy. Fix it much later when the fix is only slightly less palatable than the uncorrected outcome.

Who knows, it might come to nothing. Things might just balance out, coincidentally. Does it sound like a good gamble to me? NO.

Good Luck.
Brian.
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  #774  
Old 07.12.2009, 00:46
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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You understand that all this information is over half a year old? This is hardly breaking news. Why did it take so long to get out? Is it just convenient that the Climate Conference is coming up? Or is it just obvious?



Please, don't say that you are using this article as a source of your information regarding the potential validity of Climate Control. This article is at best a poorly worded op-ed piece and at worst scaremongering and rubbish. Ooh, our children are being used against us? Is this before or after all of the BS about all of the other things that fanatics are actually using our children to promulgate? For example there is Intelligent Design, and other various right wing and left wing conspiracies? Next, people will start telling us that PETA actually loves animals? Great.

NB. Only politicians and the Media use Global Warming anymore. The science is already out that Global Warming is way too simplistic. It doesn't explain stuff properly and is too weak in its predictions. It is a start but doesn't cover all of the problems that we are starting to experience. Climate Change is much more accurate in terms of scope and definitions as well as being more correct in terms of predictable outcomes.

That is why the hacks are now screaming Global Warming. It doesn't explain things properly and it's use is obstructive to completely understanding what is going on and what needs to be done next. Of course that would suit the Nay Sayers just fine as they don't want to do anything. Just keep going as we are until things get so bad that we have to do something drastic. Then that would reflect the nature of most people. Don't fix it now when it is easy. Fix it much later when the fix is only slightly less palatable than the uncorrected outcome.

Who knows, it might come to nothing. Things might just balance out, coincidentally. Does it sound like a good gamble to me? NO.

Good Luck.
Brian.

I think you don't realize that you are walking in between a conversation between BOB and I that we have been having for ages, spanning multiple threads. Its a long conversation about science and religion.

This thread, when started by the OP, earned the OP lots of scorn and abuse. Those who piled on him ridiculed him for not believing scientists, calling him a nut and other things. These are the types of scenes I repeatedly jump into on EF, as I detest them. The thread got bumped, prompting our latest pops.

Well, I am glad you understand that the science put forth about GW is too simplistic. Some of us have known for quite a long time that it was too simplistic. We simply don't believe the "scientists", then I got labeled a religious mental retard a number of times. Get it? Ahh... the tolerant virtues of those who claim to be people of reason and humanity.

Let's try a more intelligent discussion.

Last edited by Phos; 07.12.2009 at 01:10.
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  #775  
Old 07.12.2009, 02:27
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Well, first of all.... Anthropological Global Warming.... where is it?
Perhaps it would be more interesting to hear why you think the unnaturally large amounts of pollution and greenhouse gases released since the industrial revolution will not be detrimental [0] to the Earth's climate. and why trying to reduce them is a bad thing ?

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I'm just glad the scammed failed at its attempt to tax and control the whole world.
Ah, I see. It boils down to another conspiracy theory.

[0] In the context of it being conducive to supporting human society.

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  #776  
Old 07.12.2009, 02:37
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Phos - is there any significance to you using the term 'anthropological' rather than 'anthropogenic'? You normally see the latter term used in discussions of this subject.
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Old 07.12.2009, 03:03
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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The earth has been through all sorts of cycles - ice ages, cooling, warming and so on. It is connected with cosmic/solar cycles. The sun remember is over 99% of the mass of our solar system, the earth is totally insignificant.
We can have many more cycles of Ice ages and Very Hot ages, no doubt about that, but science can surely determine if we are hastening this cyclic process. During the past cycles we had relatively negligible human and animal population and their emissions, more forests naturally which acted as a CO2 sinks, and not any significant artifical emission of CO2 from fossil fuels, well this is different from the previous times.

Global warming?, if it warms surely we can measure it, if we have longer summers it will surely be obvious and measurable, and if these yearly heat increases are confirmed then surely we will survive but we also invite tropical animals into previously much cooler places and so on. If its confirmed that there's warming, then surely glaciers melt (has been confirmed in the Artic, Himalayas ... Only Antartica needs to be confirmed and more studies are needed), then ocean levels rise(rises have been confirmed) and yes for some of us it wont be a problem, but many will die. Its confirmed that ice acts as a reflector of sunlight, but the sea is likely if the trend continues to absorb all the light which we did not before, and thus cause heating for sure, (well we can selfishly forget all the creatures and sea flora that need the ice and colder climate for their survival) and due to all the changes chage the way we live, maybe ok for some but its not so for many. Europe learned to plan ahead due to its geography and cold winters etc, so nothing wrong in planning for the future instead of dealing with the problem only when its uncontrollable.

Oil companies lobbied against any Anti Global Warming initiatives, if there was no global warming then why did they do so for long?, the hoax would have crumbled away anyway?.

Energy efficient cars save money, renewable energy use conserves our energy reserves, and less emissions which are a well known fact helps us breathe better and live healthier, so what are we destroying by the efficient use of energy?, i dont see a problem ANYWAY. I am confident that in the above contexts the "Hoax" wont do us harm, but the Fossil fuels do us a lot of harm apart from the harm we recognize and which some call "A Hoax".

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  #778  
Old 07.12.2009, 11:06
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Hahaha.. that's some attempt to try to close down a thread that must be a source of embarrassment.
No. It was a reflection on our different ideas of what constitute "truth" and "belief".

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I have to say that unfailing belief of yours in an unfounded AGW has all the trappings of a religious cult in itself:
It's not unfailing.
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Old 07.12.2009, 12:34
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

My brother did a PhD in paleoclimatology, the study of past climate by examining microscopic fossils. He was sceptical about anthropogenic climate change long ago, mainly observing that climate change during the period of human industrial activity was within historic norms.

He does, however, acknowledge the level of uncertainty about the subject. The possible consequences if the anthropogenic hypothesis is true are so drastic that we should act as if it is true.

This is a modern form of Pascal's Wager that I subscribe to also.

In addition, many efforts at carbon reducton are simply good from a sustainability perspective.
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Old 07.12.2009, 15:45
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Perhaps it would be more interesting to hear why you think the unnaturally large amounts of pollution and greenhouse gases released since the industrial revolution will not be detrimental [0] to the Earth's climate. and why trying to reduce them is a bad thing ?


Ah, I see. It boils down to another conspiracy theory.

[0] In the context of it being conducive to supporting human society.

My problem with it is that it is misguided, even a lie, and laden with a political agenda. And yet, the science was not even allowed to be scrutinized. Though funny how so many who claimed to be rationalists and non-fundamentalists jumped onto it with the blind faith of a cult inductee.

This started with the Green movement in the 80s. The rational around it was the if a threat could be addressed before it can materialize into a real problem, then it should be - "the precautionary principle". The problem with this is that threats can be perceived anywhere. It does not rationalize the drastic actions they were proposing to deal with the impending doom they themselves conjured up. Realize that they even set off to stomp out any dissenters. Is that science and rationality? Buahaha.

I actually think that human activity probably does contribute to the warming of the earth. Thermographic imagery of the terrain clearly demonstrate cities can get be 5 degress hotter that it would be otherwise. It points to air-conditioning, and the covering of naturally circulating soil with asphalt or buildings as probable culprits. Yet, in its inability to find the political backing to do anything about such things, they twist it around to something which they can get backing for.... oil. Just twist the truth, lie about it for now, then hopefully, we might be able to address the real issue later. Now, at that point, it is no longer science, but politics. I'm quite glad they failed.
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