Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 17.03.2007, 19:50
Jamesk's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 156
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Jamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Hi

There was a wonderful programme in TV - BBC in UK - a week ago very interesting explaining the origin of global warming. Any scinetist watching that programme straightaway I'm sure started looking at the subject. So clear relationship between the sun temperature, cosmic rays, clouds formation, sea temperature and earth temperature for decades is not a coincidence. The evidence is more than that. I think it's conclusive.
CO2 is not the direct cause of global warming neither the mankind and our luxuries.
But who can stop now the machine and all the money invested on it...

Well, time will tell...

Pitty if you didn't have the chance of watching it.

Regards Caracola
Thanks for that update Caracola - I was beginning to wonder about the sanity of some of the people here!

Wish I had seen it. Maybe it can be downloaded from somewhere, what was it called?
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 17.03.2007, 20:00
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Slough
Posts: 10
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
caracola has no particular reputation at present
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Hi Jamesk

Apologies for the misunderstanding. It wasn't in BBC but Channel 4. Here you are the link.

Hope you enjoy it and those CO2 believers may have a look as well just for having another point of view, explanation, rationale.

Regards

http://www.channel4.com/science/micr...p=docpage_box3
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 17.03.2007, 20:09
Jamesk's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 156
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Jamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
So everybody is wrong and you are right because you can see beyond the veil of deceit and lies...Give yourself a pat on the back and keep taking the medicine
Yes, everyone who thinks that CO2 (a harmless gas that is produced by metabolism, and is a nutrient for plants) can raise the temperature of the earth is wrong.

It's not about me being right, it's about giving away one's own mind to someone else - 'experts'; whatever they say becomes the gospel truth, even when common sense tells you that it's absurd.

Anyone that does not agree with this becomes a 'mental' person, or a heretic, or 'conspiracy' theorist, or a 'denier', or whatever else you can call him to shut him up - or hang him.

Is it possible for you to think for yourself for minute? Try it - believe me you won't be struck down, you won't die...

Let me help you - is it possible for you to think this thought:

"The CO2 = Global Warming mantra that is repeated everywhere you look is a LIE. It is physically impossible for CO2 to do anything to the the earths temperature. Politicians, Media, 'Scientists' are telling lies."


There, that wasn't so hard was it?
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 17.03.2007, 20:19
BeastOfBodmin's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 838
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 320 Times in 215 Posts
BeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Hi Jamesk

Apologies for the misunderstanding. It wasn't in BBC but Channel 4. Here you are the link.

Hope you enjoy it and those CO2 believers may have a look as well just for having another point of view, explanation, rationale.

Regards

http://www.channel4.com/science/micr...p=docpage_box3
There is a thread on that discusses that programme here. I watched it last Saturday, and I have to admit it forced me to check my assumptions. But it soon became clear that the film maker had mis-represented the talking heads. In fact the film maker did something similar, on C4, 10 years ago. As a result, C4 got into trouble with the regulator and had to apologise.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 18.03.2007, 00:11
Jamesk's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 156
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Jamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

A few facts of interest:

% Composition of Air
===============

CO2 = 0.35%

Water Vapour (average 2-3%, min 0, max 4%)

Taking the average water vapour content of 2.5%, means that the water vapour content of air is over 700% more then the CO2 content.

The percent of man made CO2 is approx 3%, ie 0.0105% of the air.

Even if you double the present man made CO2 (ie you have a 100% CO2 increase), this will give you a man made CO2% of air to be 0.021%.

Water vapour would be 11900% more then this.


The mass of the earth is 6 * 10 power 24

It takes 4 Joules energy to heat 1g water by 1 degree. To make the maths simple, lets say that it takes 10 kwh to maintain this temperature for a year.

So to heat the mass of the earth by 1 degree you would need:

6*10 power 25 kwh.

The estimated Total energy consumption of the world is 600 quadrillion thermal units by 2020. Or 0.18 quadrillion kwh's. ie 0.18 * 10 power 15.

Say 2*10 power 13.

This means that you would need the total world energy consumption as at 2020 PLUS 4*10 power 12 kwh to increase global temperature by 1 degree.

That means that the energy required to heat the earth by 1 degree is several trillion times more then what the total world energy consumption of 2020.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 18.03.2007, 03:32
RolandRB's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ex Basel
Posts: 570
Groaned at 138 Times in 44 Posts
Thanked 170 Times in 107 Posts
RolandRB is considered knowledgeableRolandRB is considered knowledgeableRolandRB is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
A few facts of interest:

The mass of the earth is 6 * 10 power 24

It takes 4 Joules energy to heat 1g water by 1 degree. To make the maths simple, lets say that it takes 10 kwh to maintain this temperature for a year.

So to heat the mass of the earth by 1 degree you would need:

6*10 power 25 kwh.
I thought you might have been trolling to start with, your "science" was so stupid. Now you have proved it and only a fool will not see you are trolling. You are talking about heating the entire Earth, including its molten core as part of global warming. Even children with a GCSE in science can see through that one. Very funny.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 18.03.2007, 06:04
RolandRB's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ex Basel
Posts: 570
Groaned at 138 Times in 44 Posts
Thanked 170 Times in 107 Posts
RolandRB is considered knowledgeableRolandRB is considered knowledgeableRolandRB is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I'm not saying that CO2 does not absorb IR (or rather FIR, Far Infrared, which is the heating band of sunlight), I'm saying that the amount it absorbs and reflects in minuscule as compared to the other substances on earth that absorb and reflect IR.

Water, being 70% of earth, is the most important. But every organic substance (all carbon, your cells, etc) absorbs and emits IR.

Those simulation curves that you pointed to exist for virtually all substances that exist on earth, IR absorption and reflection is not a property unique to CO2.

99.99999% of the 'green house' effect is due to water - ie cloud cover. This cloud cover (ie the water cycle that is responsible for life on earth) has existed for billions of years, It is not responsible for so called 'Global Warming' or 'Global Cooling'.

Climate change is related to the activity of the sun.

Yes, the education system is to be blamed for the fact that the public is so easily misled. The 'education system' is not an education system, but an 'Indoctrination System'. People are taught not to think for themselves, but to just believe what the 'experts' (like the high Priests, or Gods of old) say is true.
Those are not "simulation curves" for CO2 as you would like to think. They are *absorption* curves for radiation. Two atom molecules do not absorb or emit IR radiation because they do not have a mode of vibration at any IR frequencies. Three atom molecules and more do. N2 and O2 are *not* greenhouse gases.

As for organic substances absorbing and emitting IR then that is true of any molecule of more than two atoms and this is being done over the whole surface of the planet but global warming is only a surface and sea effect so it all depends on whether this IR given out escapes the planet or is kept in. If some it kept in then it will warm the surface of the planet to some degree which may be insignificant or significant so some sort of experiment or simulation will have to decide that.

I have explained to you before, and will do so again now, that the amount of H2O in the atmosphere is the *effect* of global warming. The hotter the sea and land is, the more water evapourates and goes into the atmosphere which in turn increases the effect.

Climate change could well be due to "the activity of the sun". The polar ice caps of Mars have been shrinking these past three years and for sure that is nothing to do with our burning fossil fuel.

No scientist to date has *proved* that global warming is due to our burning fossil fuel although the implication made by the media is that it is so. That is the media for you. I am willing to carefully read such a case made and the evidence presented but I don't know of one so presented.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 18.03.2007, 11:34
Jamesk's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 156
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Jamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I thought you might have been trolling to start with, your "science" was so stupid. Now you have proved it and only a fool will not see you are trolling. You are talking about heating the entire Earth, including its molten core as part of global warming. Even children with a GCSE in science can see through that one. Very funny.
Well then take the mass of the molten core out and do your own calculation and lets see what you come up with.

The amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of the earth by 1 degree would still be astronomical - several trillions times the energy that man is estimated to consume in 2020.

I just did those calculations to to show the physical absurdity of the notion that a change in CO2 in the air from 0.35% to 0.36% would magically heat the world up. Even if the total world CO2 (natural and man made were to increase by 1000% (ie 3.5% of air, a feat that is impossible unless there are some massive volcanic eruptions for example), it still would not effect the temerature of the earth.

If such an event occurred, there may be a local change in temperature at the location of the volcanic eruption say, but this would be temporary.

BTW: There is a belief that the core of the earth is not molten lava as suggested, but hollow, a bit like a coconut. It is believed that covilisations exist on the inner surface as they do on the outer. The Tibetans, for example, believe that the 'King of the World' lives in the inner earth, and the Dalai Lama is an outer world representative of the inner world king.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 18.03.2007, 11:38
David H's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oerlikon
Posts: 52
Groaned at 4 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 14 Times in 9 Posts
David H has made some interesting contributions
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
BTW: There is a belief that the core of the earth is not molten lava as suggested, but hollow, a bit like a coconut. It is believed that covilisations exist on the inner surface as they do on the outer. The Tibetans, for example, believe that the 'King of the World' lives in the inner earth, and the Dalai Lama is an outer world representative of the inner world king.
And my children think there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.

However this has nothing to do with science and therefore has no place in any science based debate.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 18.03.2007, 12:36
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,268
Groaned at 311 Times in 207 Posts
Thanked 9,601 Times in 3,386 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post

If such an event occurred, there may be a local change in temperature at the location of the volcanic eruption say, but this would be temporary.

BTW: There is a belief that the core of the earth is not molten lava as suggested, but hollow, a bit like a coconut. It is believed that covilisations exist on the inner surface as they do on the outer. The Tibetans, for example, believe that the 'King of the World' lives in the inner earth, and the Dalai Lama is an outer world representative of the inner world king.
On this theory wouldn't these inner-earth people pour out of volcanoes, rather than molten lava.

Then, doubtless they'd all claim political asylum. I've search the Daily Mail, but can find nothing on it...
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 18.03.2007, 13:59
Jamesk's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 156
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Jamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
On this theory wouldn't these inner-earth people pour out of volcanoes, rather than molten lava.

Then, doubtless they'd all claim political asylum. I've search the Daily Mail, but can find nothing on it...
It's more likely that the outer-earth people would be looking for political asylum in the inner world after making the surface un in-inhabitable from the pollution and military weapons.

Apparently this has happened before - remnants of Atlantis, Lemura, Mu are supposed to be living there.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 18.03.2007, 14:04
Lynn's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Zurich Region
Posts: 1,131
Groaned at 10 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,296 Times in 465 Posts
Lynn has a reputation beyond reputeLynn has a reputation beyond reputeLynn has a reputation beyond reputeLynn has a reputation beyond reputeLynn has a reputation beyond reputeLynn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I've followed this thread for a little while and thought I'd finally post... I have to say although a little "out there" there is some food for thought from JamesK's posts. He is right to get us to think carefully about what we are being told. Let's not forget how often we have been deceived by the media/government/scientist team, who inform us on all we need to know. The idea of big brother too is unfortunately not that far removed from reality...

Sadly the whole inner outer earth people thingy kind of spoiled it a bit...
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 18.03.2007, 14:29
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,268
Groaned at 311 Times in 207 Posts
Thanked 9,601 Times in 3,386 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
<snip>
Sadly the whole inner outer earth people thingy kind of spoiled it a bit...
Only a bit?
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 18.03.2007, 14:32
Jamesk's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 156
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Jamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
And my children think there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.

However this has nothing to do with science and therefore has no place in any science based debate.
Good for your children! I reckon that the chances of there being such things as 'nature spirits' are high - one day science might be able to demonstrate that children were right and adults wrong!

I didn't say that it has anything to do with the debate about whether or not CO2 can magically heat up the earth - it doesn't and CO2 can't. I just mentioned it to point out that the assumption about the core of the earth being molten lava, with astronomically high temperatures - is just an assumption.

I think that it is sensible to be vigilant about anything that you are told to believe as the 'truth' - our history demonstrates that the so called 'truths' invariably turned out to be false when properly investigated.

As the Buddha said:
  • Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
  • Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
  • Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
  • Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
  • Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
  • But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 18.03.2007, 14:39
evilshell's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, formerly Basel
Posts: 3,363
Groaned at 96 Times in 80 Posts
Thanked 3,074 Times in 1,338 Posts
evilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I've followed this thread for a little while and thought I'd finally post... I have to say although a little "out there" there is some food for thought from JamesK's posts. He is right to get us to think carefully about what we are being told. Let's not forget how often we have been deceived by the media/government/scientist team, who inform us on all we need to know. The idea of big brother too is unfortunately not that far removed from reality...

Sadly the whole inner outer earth people thingy kind of spoiled it a bit...
I've got to agree with you completely.

The "war against climate change" is the new "war on terror", and it is really good for diverting attention to what's happening in oil-rich countries with wars started by oil-influenced and benefiting politicians.

I'm of the mind that global warming is caused mostly by just normal earth trends towards temperature and climate, exaggerated by man's contributions.

The current hype about it is nothing more than a man-made (or should we say propaganda-made?) contribution.

I just can't buy into people living inside the earth, however.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 18.03.2007, 15:01
Jamesk's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 156
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Jamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I have explained to you before, and will do so again now, that the amount of H2O in the atmosphere is the *effect* of global warming. The hotter the sea and land is, the more water evapourates and goes into the atmosphere which in turn increases the effect.

Climate change could well be due to "the activity of the sun". The polar ice caps of Mars have been shrinking these past three years and for sure that is nothing to do with our burning fossil fuel.

No scientist to date has *proved* that global warming is due to our burning fossil fuel although the implication made by the media is that it is so. That is the media for you. I am willing to carefully read such a case made and the evidence presented but I don't know of one so presented.
Yes.

The question is why have politicians, media and their collection of 'Yes Sir' experts focussed on a harmless gas that forms 0.4% of air with or without the burning of fossil fuels?
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 18.03.2007, 15:19
RolandRB's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: ex Basel
Posts: 570
Groaned at 138 Times in 44 Posts
Thanked 170 Times in 107 Posts
RolandRB is considered knowledgeableRolandRB is considered knowledgeableRolandRB is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Well then take the mass of the molten core out and do your own calculation and lets see what you come up with.
The joke's up. Well done for getting this far. Change your face and your name and try again later with something new. Better not try a science subject. Just a suggestion.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 18.03.2007, 15:23
BeastOfBodmin's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 838
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 320 Times in 215 Posts
BeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond reputeBeastOfBodmin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I've got to agree with you completely.

The "war against climate change" is the new "war on terror", and it is really good for diverting attention to what's happening in oil-rich countries with wars started by oil-influenced and benefiting politicians.

I'm of the mind that global warming is caused mostly by just normal earth trends towards temperature and climate, exaggerated by man's contributions.
May I ask what research you have done on this? In my opinion, popular accounts as read in the newspapers, or seen on BBC news bulletins, often just get it wrong. It happens quite often that a "scientific report" has the original scientists disagreeing with the way their statements were represented. I think this has as much to do with the technical ignorance of most reporters as the need to sell papers or gain viewers. And why scientists don't learn either ...

One should go as close as possible to the science, because that takes you closer to the data. It is the data that are used to support the scientists' conclusions, and it is the data that are scrutinised by their peers. Scientific debate is (usually!) of a rather different character than you might see on the BBC's Newsnight, Question Time or especially Prime Minister's QT. In science, the less conclusive the data supporting a theory, the more the debate looks like a political argument.

Quote:
View Post
The current hype about it is nothing more than a man-made (or should we say propaganda-made?) contribution.
I agree it is hyped at the moment, but you have to do better than make up your mind by weighing up the polemics and arguments that go on in the media. Is your decision based upon an emotional, value judgement calculated from how you "feel" about the people arguing this way or that? Or are you being objective, having looked at facts?

Climate scientists have been theorising about the effects of climate change for decades now. The general public are only now becoming aware of it (the hype you speak of). It's even getting through the self-interested, technically and scientifically retarded skulls of our corrupt political leaders.

The scientists, however, have become more and more forthright because over time their datasets are more extensive over time and in depth, and their models are better. And the models are predicting some nasty scenarios.

Dig a little deeper, and I feel you would probably reverse your opinion, or even decide the official IPCC scenarios are too optimistic. At the same time, you might emerge better equipped, knowing such things as the basic assumptions and the weakest assumptions.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 18.03.2007, 15:58
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,268
Groaned at 311 Times in 207 Posts
Thanked 9,601 Times in 3,386 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
<snip>


As the Buddha said:
  • Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
  • Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
  • Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
  • Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
  • Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
  • But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
But if you follow what Buddha says here, you won't follow Buddha...
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 18.03.2007, 17:31
Jamesk's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 156
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Jamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeableJamesk is considered knowledgeable
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
But if you follow what Buddha says here, you won't follow Buddha...
I don't follow - the Buddha is just giving advice on how to avoid being misled.

The advice is similar to Socrates.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
climate change, climategate, co2, global warming




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0