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  #801  
Old 23.12.2009, 20:23
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Hi Cashboy,

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you were asking out of genuine interest and curiosity. You'll have to do a bit of reading, and maybe re-reading, to get the ideas to sink in. But that's normal .

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Looking at the weather in Europe and the East Coast of America; where is this global warming?
Read the article and look at the figures reproduced therein. Try not to get involved in the controversy for now, which will be found in the comments at the bottom of the article, no doubt.

Temperature Variations in Past Centuries and the so-called "Hockey Stick"

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How long has global warming been talked about.......3 years?
More like 30. But if you mean "when did it appear in the 'collective consciousness'", I think more than 3. But I noticed about three years ago, that it had become politicised and unfortunately the mass media had ****ed up completely, and as usual, the basic reporting of the issues.

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Suddenly it is all so urgent to be rectified immediately.........doesn't make sense to me?.........is it political?
May I suggest you go to IPCC WG1 AR4 Report and download and read the "Summary for Policymakers", which is a 3.5MB PDF. This is written as a concise summary of the whole AR4 report, and is aimed at the intelligent layman, which is perhaps being a bit kind to politicians.

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I have been led to believe that a volcano produces more heat, gases etc etc than say all the power stations in America.
If that is the case, then there is no need for human kind to rush to change things.
CO2 in the air comes mostly from volcanos

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Then people say but the artic is melting so the earth must be warmimg up.
I believe that the sea covers two thirds of the world surface.
Therefore there are more than twice the number of volcanos under the sea because the centre of the earth is closer to the bottom of the sea.
Any volcano will create currents and warm flows of water.
So a couple of extra volcanos erupting would make all the difference surely?
That is not a feasible scenario. If you want a considered answer, please post it on the "Ask a Scientist" thread.

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Isn't it a case that the financial centres of the world want to start making money from speculating, selling and trading carbon emmissions?
It's more complex than that. Politicians are **** scared of imposing outright taxes. A carbon tax at source, which would properly internalise costs and if levied at the mine face or well head would properly impose the costs further downstream. So they will go for emissions trading scams. The energy companies made more money from this in Europe because the European Commission practically gave credits away to the polluters.

The energy companies just recouped the money by passing costs on to the consumers. Also, AFAIR, there is no phased reduction in the amount of carbon credits that can be traded.

The financial centres only made money on brokerage charges and speceulation. Their margins are a fraction of the cash flow.

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Waiting for some more red blobbies!
From me? Not yet. Do your homework and maybe I won't
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  #802  
Old 24.12.2009, 01:07
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Well, it's pretty clear you never studied earth science....
Doesn't matter. To understand what's currently going on regarding AGW and CO2 it's much more useful to have a good understanding of business and economics.
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  #803  
Old 24.12.2009, 08:07
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Doesn't matter. To understand what's currently going on regarding AGW and CO2 it's much more useful to have a good understanding of business and economics.
Only if you're concerned about policy. Typically, when people start losing the science argument, they start in with rants about policy and politicians. That's when I know they aren't really all that interested in understanding the science.
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  #804  
Old 26.12.2009, 18:27
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Looking at the weather in Europe and the East Coast of America; where is this global warming?
You need to understand the difference between climate and weather.
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  #805  
Old 15.02.2010, 21:15
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I think we can declare this topic solved, once and for all, don't you think?

Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995. Lost the relevant papers.

World may not be warming, say scientists

THERE has been no global warming for 15 years, key scientist admitted
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  #806  
Old 15.02.2010, 21:22
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Do not trust much the journalists. I recently talked to a person with a PhD in climate science, and she said that there is no doubt that the average temperature is going up in the next decades.
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  #807  
Old 15.02.2010, 21:25
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I think we can declare this topic solved, once and for all, don't you think?
If what's stated is true, that could be A Really Inconvenient Truth - will Gore
& the IPCC have to give their Nobel Prizes back, I wonder?

And what will they tax us on instead of carbon?

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I recently talked to a person with a PhD in climate science, and she said that there is no doubt that the average temperature is going up in the next decades.
And I would have no doubt, either, if my saying that was going to
bring the "research grants" in for the "next decades".
.

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Old 15.02.2010, 21:35
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Do not trust much the journalists. I recently talked to a person with a PhD in climate science, and she said that there is no doubt that the average temperature is going up in the next decades.

There are direct quotes in the articles from the key climate scientists themselves.
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  #809  
Old 15.02.2010, 22:54
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

The Daily Mail, the Daily Express and the Times . . . nice selection of (right wing) newspapers.
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  #810  
Old 15.02.2010, 22:57
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

everybody knows that global warming is a fake theory put about by alien lizard men overlords who rule secretly and manipulate the minds of our leaders behind the scenes to control/develop a new world order in which all of us are slaves to mega-corporations controlled by the same alien cabal.
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Old 15.02.2010, 23:52
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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If what's stated is true, that could be A Really Inconvenient Truth - will Gore
& the IPCC have to give their Nobel Prizes back, I wonder?

And what will they tax us on instead of carbon?

And I would have no doubt, either, if my saying that was going to
bring the "research grants" in for the "next decades".
What about the climate scientist that is retired and isn't corrupt and has been viewing the data from core samples from millennia back as well as ocean temperature measurements for over half a century? I know one and I actually trust his honesty and integrity. He isn't a right wing or left wing hack trying to score points and has kept to the same story for decades. That was at least half a decade before it was popular to "protect the earth."

I have already had this argument at least three times in as many forums and can't be bothered to spend much time trying to convince people who want to believe that this is a scam and nothing bad could possibly happen. Let alone accept the possibility that some will happen if we don't take some action.

Lets look at it this way. If you are right then congratulations, you win. Good on you. If you are wrong, then it doesn't matter because there will be nothing we can do about it at that point. In which case congratulations are still in order because you won't have to listen to how wrong you were for very long as you as well the rest of us will be spending too much time trying to fix it after it is broken.

The "non temperature increase" people keep on harping on about isn't factually correct. The temp is increasing still over time. It is just going up very slowly. But the net gain in temperature is still positive and over a decade or two is more than a few degrees C. But hey what is a fraction of a degree between friends? We can pretend that it doesn't matter if we look at a small enough time window, right? Because that is what is happening right now.

If this is really a problem, it will be the same people that you have been attacking that will be saving you. And you will be bitching about how they didn't do enough to stop this in the first place.

Good Luck,
Brian.
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  #812  
Old 15.02.2010, 23:58
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Lets look at it this way. If you are right then congratulations, you win. Good on you. If you are wrong, then it doesn't matter because there will be nothing we can do about it at that point. In which case congratulations are still in order because you won't have to listen to how wrong you were for very long as you as well the rest of us will be spending too much time trying to fix it after it is broken.

The "non temperature increase" people keep on harping on about isn't factually correct. The temp is increasing still over time. It is just going up very slowly. But the net gain in temperature is still positive and over a decade or two is more than a few degrees C. But hey what is a fraction of a degree between friends? We can pretend that it doesn't matter if we look at a small enough time window, right? Because that is what is happening right now.

If this is really a problem, it will be the same people that you have been attacking that will be saving you. And you will be bitching about how they didn't do enough to stop this in the first place.

Good Luck,
Brian.

Wow. That almost sounds like a religious argument, do you know what I mean?
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Old 16.02.2010, 00:01
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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it will be the same people that you have been attacking that will be saving you.
... and how are they going to do that?

Pile their research papers up on the beaches to hold the waves back?
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Old 16.02.2010, 00:06
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

could somebody please point me to:

1. evidence that the world is warming and that the temperature fluctuation is outwith the normal variations over geological time

2. if (1) is provided, can you show that the impact will be so negative as to warrant massive countermeasures.

3. if (2) is provided can you show that carbon emissions are the cause of this warming or that carbon controls will avert the negative impact of (2).

TIA.
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Old 16.02.2010, 00:17
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Wow. That almost sounds like a religious argument, do you know what I mean?
Yes, I do. I am tired of hearing this religious argument from people who just don't want to see the facts. As to what will happen if we don't act, we don't know but there are all sorts of theories.

If you don't care now, you might later when we will get to see which theories turn out to be true.

Remember it was the religious institutions who fought the idea that the earth wasn't the center of the universe. Now the same type of arguments are being used by certain political organisations to claim that Climate Change is immaterial. Now they have even gone one step further and are starting to claim that the science is "all lies." When in fact what they are really doing is engaging in delaying tactics to try and avoid having to deal with the issue at all. Only this time the argument is over whether or not the Earth is at the center of the universe but whether or not business as usual is a prudent and sound policy with regard to Climate Change. I know how it ended last time. Time will tell how it comes out this time.

Good Luck, because unlike religious arguments where we can't really know the answer until it is too late, many of us will know the answer before it is too late. The question may be how much time will we have before it is too late.
Brian.
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Old 16.02.2010, 00:22
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Yes, I do. I am tired of hearing this religious argument from people who just don't want to see the facts. As to what will happen if we don't act, we don't know but there are all sorts of theories.

If you don't care now, you might later when we will get to see which theories turn out to be true.

Remember it was the religious institutions who fought the idea that the earth wasn't the center of the universe. Now the same type of arguments are being used by certain political organisations to claim that Climate Change is immaterial. Now they have even gone one step further and are starting to claim that the science is "all lies." When in fact what they are really doing is engaging in delaying tactics to try and avoid having to deal with the issue at all. Only this time the argument is over whether or not the Earth is at the center of the universe but whether or not business as usual is a prudent and sound policy with regard to Climate Change. I know how it ended last time. Time will tell how it comes out this time.

Good Luck, because unlike religious arguments where we can't really know the answer until it is too late, many of us will know the answer before it is too late. The question may be how much time will we have before it is too late.
Brian.

That's not actually true. Religions are on-board with the Global Warming theory. The Church of England is on it. Lots of Christian organizations sprouted environmental groups. You're actually on the side of the Pope on this.

The problem is that there is NO data, only hysteria. And in blindly believing scientists, simply because they are scientists.... well, sounds like a religion to me.
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Old 16.02.2010, 00:42
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I recently talked to a person with a PhD in climate science, and she said that there is no doubt that the average temperature is going up in the next decades.
Even if it was, who says that a warmer climate would be such a bad thing? Historically mankind has been better off during warm times, which makes perfect sense if you forget all the propaganda for a moment and think about it rationally. A lot of the alleged negative consequences of a warmer climate is just fear mongering. Honestly, I would be quite a bit more worried if a new ice age was upon us.
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Old 16.02.2010, 00:51
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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That's not actually true. Religions are on-board with the Global Warming theory. The Church of England is on it. Lots of Christian organizations sprouted environmental groups. You're actually on the side of the Pope on this.

The problem is that there is NO data, only hysteria. And in blindly believing scientists, simply because they are scientists.... well, sounds like a religion to me.
I was comparing the religious environment of Galileo's time with the political environment of today. I never said that formal religion was against or for.

The problem is that there is plenty of data but that people would rather spend a very large amount of time saying that there isn't. They are looking for a smoking gun. Something that is easy to understand and tangible. Something that they can broadcast as the leading headline on the local news. It isn't going to be that way. And by insisting that they don't trust anything that isn't like that they are blinding themselves to what truth is out there. But these people don't really want the truth, unless it conforms to their expectations and desires. At least science eventually arrives at some facts for all of its efforts.

I don't know who you are referring to when you use the word hysteria, as most of the irrational statements that are clearly unverifiable are coming from the "Business as Usual" camp. I have said it before and I will say it again, I have yet to read one article that contradicted the basic premise of Climate Change in an unequivocal and irrefutable manner by a scientist that had any credibility and didn't have an ax to grind, i.e. political or worked for a corporation, etc.

Brian.
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Old 16.02.2010, 01:05
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I was comparing the religious environment of Galileo's time with the political environment of today. I never said that formal religion was against or for.

The problem is that there is plenty of data but that people would rather spend a very large amount of time saying that there isn't. They are looking for a smoking gun. Something that is easy to understand and tangible. Something that they can broadcast as the leading headline on the local news. It isn't going to be that way. And by insisting that they don't trust anything that isn't like that they are blinding themselves to what truth is out there. But these people don't really want the truth, unless it conforms to their expectations and desires. At least science eventually arrives at some facts for all of its efforts.

I don't know who you are referring to when you use the word hysteria, as most of the irrational statements that are clearly unverifiable are coming from the "Business as Usual" camp. I have said it before and I will say it again, I have yet to read one article that contradicted the basic premise of Climate Change in an unequivocal and irrefutable manner by a scientist that had any credibility and didn't have an ax to grind, i.e. political or worked for a corporation, etc.

Brian.


My problem with it is its hoodwink approach. They propose to rearrange the whole global economy over inconclusive data and simple hysteria. The thing smelled foul from the very beginning.
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Old 16.02.2010, 01:11
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Global warmng scientists the green party enviromentalists etc you know people who have studied this subject intensively for years are in no doubt that human activity is responsible for the escallation in co2 emissions.But oil loving nations chose to ignore it over profit.Now the state of affairs is so dire even they cant ignore it .I think your find the evidence cant be denied.Still when the planet is a huge desert your have plenty of sand to bury your head in.
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