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  #821  
Old 16.02.2010, 01:16
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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My problem with it is its hoodwink approach. They propose to rearrange the whole global economy over inconclusive data and simple hysteria. The thing smelled foul from the very beginning.
Er, hoodwinking may or may not be happening. But, that has nothing to do with the science of the matter.

But obviously you don't want to talk about data or anything concrete. It is out their on the net if you want to find it. You will have to have an understanding of what is happening and how it is measured to get anything from the raw data though.

How is your comment about the arrangement of the "whole global economy" over this particular data set significantly different than what has been happening for a very long time? If you are going to be upset about people trying to do something about Climate Change then you must have been pissed off all of your politically aware life, because this is one of the least abusive scenarios with regard to the global economy in a long time.

Brian.
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  #822  
Old 16.02.2010, 01:29
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Er, hoodwinking may or may not be happening. But, that has nothing to do with the science of the matter.

But obviously you don't want to talk about data or anything concrete. It is out their on the net if you want to find it. You will have to have an understanding of what is happening and how it is measured to get anything from the raw data though.

How is your comment about the arrangement of the "whole global economy" over this particular data set significantly different than what has been happening for a very long time? If you are going to be upset about people trying to do something about Climate Change then you must have been pissed off all of your politically aware life, because this is one of the least abusive scenarios with regard to the global economy in a long time.

Brian.


The problem is, the data is inconclusive. The proposed approach is really more of a political compromise than science. That is why this fell apart. The science in it was weak. It's not because of "people like me".

There is a certain arrogance and stupidity with people and the word "science". Somehow, they automatically pit it in the same argument religion. I have NO idea why they do that in their heads.

I think you really ought to read this thread from the beginning instead of rehashing the same arguments ad infinitum.
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  #823  
Old 16.02.2010, 01:51
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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The effort for cheap meat means the beasts are kept in places using methods which specifically allow for mass production of meat. Thousands of cattle being kept in a barn, fed corn (or whatever) rather thank relying upon the land (free range) sustaining the lives of said cattle.

IF we were limited by what can truly be sustained by free range produce, the meat we have would be more expensive... like buying local Swiss beef.

Meanwhile, IF there were such constraints, there would be fewer animals bred as the land would be unable to sustain them and hence, there would be less methane expulsion.
I agree animals , people and the planet have all been exploited the very real and negative side to capitalism and economic growth.
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  #824  
Old 16.02.2010, 02:11
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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But obviously you don't want to talk about data or anything concrete.
Data? Concrete? Welcome to the discussion. Carry on, we're listening...

What shall we discuss? Glaciers, perhaps?

Take the time to read one or more of the references provided, then come back
into the big pond, where the big teeth are

EDIT: On second thoughts, why let facts disturb a good story?
.

Last edited by weejeem; 16.02.2010 at 02:22.
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  #825  
Old 16.02.2010, 09:04
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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What shall we discuss? Glaciers, perhaps?
.
Perhaps linking to a conservative blog ("The most widely read political blog in Dakota!") is not the most credible move? The first thing that caught my eye when I went to the blog's news page was a piece on how a Michelle Bachmann speech was 'amazing'. Hmmmm . . .
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  #826  
Old 16.02.2010, 09:17
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

The Times: UN must investigate warming ‘bias’, says former climate chief

‘Every error exaggerated the impact of change’

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The UN body that advises world leaders on climate change must investigate an apparent bias in its report that resulted in several exaggerations of the impact of global warming, according to its former chairman.

In an interview with The Times Robert Watson said that all the errors exposed so far in the report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) resulted in overstatements of the severity of the problem.

Professor Watson, currently chief scientific adviser to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, said that if the errors had just been innocent mistakes, as has been claimed by the current chairman, Rajendra Pachauri, some would probably have understated the impact of climate change.

[...]

Meanwhile, a member of the inquiry team investigating allegations of misconduct by climate scientists has admitted that he holds strong views on climate change and that this contradicts a founding principle of the inquiry. Geoffrey Boulton, who was appointed last week by the inquiry chairman, Sir Muir Russell, said he believed that human activities were causing global warming.

Sir Muir issued a statement last week claiming that the inquiry members, who are investigating leaked e-mails from the University of East Anglia, did not have a “predetermined view on climate change and climate science”.
Lies, exaggerations and deception all over...
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  #827  
Old 16.02.2010, 09:41
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

More like one or two errors. Once again, the media is making much ado about nothing.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php...acts-and-spin/
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  #828  
Old 16.02.2010, 09:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

If there is global warming, it would be very usefull.

But the problem is not with the faked global warming, it is with the overpopulated world and the human greed for (if the population still keeps growing it will be, VERY) limited recources.

I like the campaign from green peace "use only what you need" but who wants to live without holidays, skiing equipment, motor transport, aircrafts, deodorant etc.
And some other want to have more than only 2 kids. Probably there is nothing which you could do about and doubt the CO2 tax will be a solution.
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  #829  
Old 16.02.2010, 09:55
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Once again, the media is making much ado about nothing.
Bit like the whole AGW industry then
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  #830  
Old 16.02.2010, 09:59
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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And I would have no doubt, either, if my saying that was going to
bring the "research grants" in for the "next decades".
.
Well, the same applies for the press, the links referred to journals (some actually considered tabloids) which are probably funded by oil, automobile, or other lobbies just to publish that kind of articles.

A couple of specific critics to those articles:

- statistics on climate change need at least 30 years to many years to analyze trends, so the argument that there was no big increase between 1995 and 2009 is not really sound

- the cite a few scientists, yes, but also economists (likeMcKitrick), does that sound serious at all? what is it, you feel sick and instead of going to the doctor you ask advice to the carpenter?

Open your eyes: the climate is changing, yes, that always happened, but is changing fast, too fast for us to able to cope with it without great sacrifices. Now it'd cost you to change a bit your lifestyles (eat less meat, use the bike instead of the car, turn down a bit the temperature in the office, for example), in the future it might cost us way lot more (huge migrations, wars, famines) . Even if you are skeptic, why take the risk for your children and grandchildren to live in a much worse world than the one you inherited?
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  #831  
Old 16.02.2010, 10:12
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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(eat less meat, use the bike instead of the car, turn down a bit the temperature in the office, for example)
Do you eat less meat, do you shiver during winter!? I hear this since i was a kid but haven`t seen many of those teaching hypocrites who relinguished on things they realy did not need.
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  #832  
Old 16.02.2010, 10:17
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Do you eat less meat, do you shiver during winter!? I hear this since i was a kid but haven`t seen many of those teaching hypocrites who relinguished on things they realy did not need.
I certainly eat less meat. I do not shiver during winter, but I wear a jumper in my apartment, while others keep it at 22 C and go around naked. Anyway, if you recognize the importance of the teachings, what do you care if the teachers are hypocrites or not? Do what you believe it's good nonetheless!
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  #833  
Old 16.02.2010, 10:58
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Well, the same applies for the press, the links referred to journals (some actually considered tabloids)
Well, if said tabloid would publish some fearmongering horror storry about global warming, you wouldn't mind that it's a tabloid, would you?

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which are probably funded by oil, automobile, or other lobbies just to publish that kind of articles.
Some scientists have been talking about AGW for decades. Nobody cared except for a bunch of treehuggers. Now suddenly over the last few years the whole AGW hysteria gained a lot of momentum. Wonder why? Well, financial institutions and governments finally realized that tons and tons of money can be extorted from the sheepishly naïve public by imposing new CO2 taxes, emission certificate trading, "cap & trade" schemes, etc., etc.

These days the "green" lobby (i.e. those profiteering from the CO2 scam) is probably just as powerful as the oil lobby.

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- statistics on climate change need at least 30 years to many years to analyze trends, so the argument that there was no big increase between 1995 and 2009 is not really sound
Well, since we're only 15 years into your desired 30-year period, it's quite likely that there won't be much (if any) warming over the next 15 years either.

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the cite a few scientists, yes, but also economists (likeMcKitrick), does that sound serious at all?
Economists play an important role in this. The cost of reducing emissions of CO2 and other gases such as methane will be absolutely enormous. Some economists claim that it would be much more effective to concentrate our resources on adapting instead of trying to prevent something that's most likely not preventable anyway.

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Open your eyes
Yes I did. And I discovered something which looks more and more like a huge scam.

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the climate is changing, yes, that always happened, but is changing fast, too fast for us to able to cope with
Another unsubstantiated allegation of the alarmists. Humans can adapt very quickly if the need arises.

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it without great sacrifices. Now it'd cost you to change a bit your lifestyles (eat less meat, use the bike instead of the car, turn down a bit the temperature in the office, for example)
If you think that substantial reductions of the CO2 emissions can be attained by a few little lifestyle changes you're almost shockingly naïve.

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Even if you are skeptic, why take the risk for your children and grandchildren to live in a much worse world than the one you inherited?
Why take the risk to ruin our lives now to fight something that most likely cannot even be influenced by humans?
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  #834  
Old 16.02.2010, 11:06
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Do you eat less meat, do you shiver during winter!? I hear this since i was a kid but haven`t seen many of those teaching hypocrites who relinguished on things they realy did not need.
It really is within the realms of possibility to cut down on your consumption as many people I know do.Going green as they say is in my opinion the responsibility of all of us as its future generations who are really going to pay the price if we dont.Just being mindful about how much you use gives you an awareness of how much you really dont need.
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  #835  
Old 16.02.2010, 11:19
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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It really is within the realms of possibility to cut down on your consumption as many people I know do.Going green as they say is in my opinion the responsibility of all of us as its future generations who are really going to pay the price if we dont.Just being mindful about how much you use gives you an awareness of how much you really dont need.

I think this is a very commendable attitude. Responsibility is a great thing. We should all make sure we clean up the mess we leave behind. We generate way too much trash.

But I'm suspicious of the fad nature of this trend. Turning off a lightbulb can make one feel they've done their part, and feel quite self-righteous about it. But in the whole scheme of things, it may not amount to much.
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  #836  
Old 16.02.2010, 11:19
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Well, if said tabloid would publish some fearmongering horror storry about global warming, you wouldn't mind that it's a tabloid, would you?
While true, it turns out to cause more harm than good, such as the one about glaciers in the himalyas, which turned out to be poorly researched and gives fuel for the deniers.


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Some scientists have been talking about AGW for decades. Nobody cared except for a bunch of treehuggers. Now suddenly over the last few years the whole AGW hysteria gained a lot of momentum. Wonder why? Well, financial institutions and governments finally realized that tons and tons of money can be extorted from the sheepishly naïve public by imposing new CO2 taxes, emission certificate trading, "cap & trade" schemes, etc., etc.
I wonder how conspiracists expect the world to work. Climate research discovers that there that we're effecting the environment, what exactly do you expect to happen? Nothing?

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These days the "green" lobby (i.e. those profiteering from the CO2 scam) is probably just as powerful as the oil lobby.
I doubt that very much, and the oil lobby aren't the only group interested in keeping the status quo.


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Economists play an important role in this. The cost of reducing emissions of CO2 and other gases such as methane will be absolutely enormous. Some economists claim that it would be much more effective to concentrate our resources on adapting instead of trying to prevent something that's most likely not preventable anyway.
Now you take the position that it's done now, and there's nothing we can do about it?


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Yes I did. And I discovered something which looks more and more like a huge scam.


Another unsubstantiated allegation of the alarmists. Humans can adapt very quickly if the need arises.
At what cost to humans?


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If you think that substantial reductions of the CO2 emissions can be attained by a few little lifestyle changes you're almost shockingly naïve.

Why take the risk to ruin our lives now to fight something that most likely cannot even be influenced by humans?
The whole point is to try to avert ruining lives by taking steps now.
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  #837  
Old 16.02.2010, 11:21
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I think this is a very commendable attitude. Responsibility is a great thing. We should all make sure we clean up the mess we leave behind. We generate way too much trash.

But I'm suspicious of the fad nature of this trend. Turning off a lightbulb can make one feel they've done their part, and feel quite self-righteous about it. But in the whole scheme of things, it may not amount to much.
Sure, if you take it in isolation. This belittling of such small gestures does nothing to help.
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  #838  
Old 16.02.2010, 11:23
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Well, if said tabloid would publish some fearmongering horror storry about global warming, you wouldn't mind that it's a tabloid, would you?
I would still not bring their articles up in a discussion, believe it or not.

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Some scientists have been talking about AGW for decades. Nobody cared except for a bunch of treehuggers.
Why should I discuss with someone who does not show respect for others? "Treehuggers" are people who respect nature and fight for it, for your own good, too.

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These days the "green" lobby (i.e. those profiteering from the CO2 scam) is probably just as powerful as the oil lobby.
Well, now the naive seems to be you.

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Economists play an important role in this. The cost of reducing emissions of CO2 and other gases such as methane will be absolutely enormous. Some economists claim that it would be much more effective to concentrate our resources on adapting instead of trying to prevent something that's most likely not preventable anyway.
No, economists have nothing to do with climate changes studies. they might have something to do with the actions we take after the climate scientists give us models and predictions for the future, but they should not be taken into consideration when the actual climate change is the focus of the discussion. Is like your bookkeeper and your doctor: only after the doctor tells you that you are going to die if you don't change your eating habits the bookkeeper could have a word on how to spend your money in food shopping.

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Another unsubstantiated allegation of the alarmists. Humans can adapt very quickly if the need arises.
Sure, but at what costs?


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If you think that substantial reductions of the CO2 emissions can be attained by a few little lifestyle changes you're almost shockingly naïve.

Why take the risk to ruin our lives now to fight something that most likely cannot even be influenced by humans?
But why would it ruin our lives? We need to find new sources of energy anyway, because the ones we are relying on now are not renewable and sooner or later will be gone. The same apply to *all* materials we use: recycling is the only way to go. And what about the pollution created by our current *good* lifestyle? Why go against all scientific community which continues saying that humans can and do influence the climate? For what?
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  #839  
Old 16.02.2010, 11:29
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Why go against all scientific community which continues saying that humans can and do influence the climate?
It's simply not true that the whole scientific community agrees on this.

And remember: Science is not like democracy where the majority decides.
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  #840  
Old 16.02.2010, 11:32
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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It's simply not true that the whole scientific community agrees on this.

And remember: Science is not like democracy where the majority decides.
Science isn't like story either, the small band of resisters aren't necessarily right.
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