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  #81  
Old 18.03.2007, 18:10
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I don't follow - the Buddha is just giving advice on how to avoid being misled.

The advice is similar to Socrates.
Buddha says:
"Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders." so, if you heard it from Buddha the teacher, taking his advice, you don't believe it.

It's like saying "You can't believe a word I say, believe me"...

Last edited by AbFab; 18.03.2007 at 22:35. Reason: To make it so clear that even I could understand it...
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  #82  
Old 18.03.2007, 20:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

AbFab, thread carefully there

James, you are the Hierophant and I'm claiming my 10 francs....(Readers of Fortean Times will get this one...)
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  #83  
Old 18.03.2007, 22:17
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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May I ask what research you have done on this? In my opinion, popular accounts as read in the newspapers, or seen on BBC news bulletins, often just get it wrong. It happens quite often that a "scientific report" has the original scientists disagreeing with the way their statements were represented. I think this has as much to do with the technical ignorance of most reporters as the need to sell papers or gain viewers. And why scientists don't learn either ...

One should go as close as possible to the science, because that takes you closer to the data. It is the data that are used to support the scientists' conclusions, and it is the data that are scrutinised by their peers. Scientific debate is (usually!) of a rather different character than you might see on the BBC's Newsnight, Question Time or especially Prime Minister's QT. In science, the less conclusive the data supporting a theory, the more the debate looks like a political argument.

I agree it is hyped at the moment, but you have to do better than make up your mind by weighing up the polemics and arguments that go on in the media. Is your decision based upon an emotional, value judgement calculated from how you "feel" about the people arguing this way or that? Or are you being objective, having looked at facts?

Climate scientists have been theorising about the effects of climate change for decades now. The general public are only now becoming aware of it (the hype you speak of). It's even getting through the self-interested, technically and scientifically retarded skulls of our corrupt political leaders.

The scientists, however, have become more and more forthright because over time their datasets are more extensive over time and in depth, and their models are better. And the models are predicting some nasty scenarios.

Dig a little deeper, and I feel you would probably reverse your opinion, or even decide the official IPCC scenarios are too optimistic. At the same time, you might emerge better equipped, knowing such things as the basic assumptions and the weakest assumptions.
You're a scientist and I'm not - so it is fair to say you probably would pick apart anything I've got to say or show about this. Not a go at you, but it is the truth

I admit to not being a scientist. But I do a lot of reading on these types of topics, and I am far from convinced that it is all due to man's activities. I've dug deeper, and I've actually reversed my former opinion that the sky was falling and we're killing the earth.

I also strongly distrust whatever is popular in the propaganda machine - and this is topic number one on it, as a distraction to others.
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  #84  
Old 18.03.2007, 22:28
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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You're a scientist and I'm not - so it is fair to say you probably would pick apart anything I've got to say or show about this. Not a go at you, but it is the truth
He has nowhere in this thread claimed to be a scientist. I sincerely hope he is not. I have the nagging feeling nowadays that a PhD equates to an old-style GCSE but it stays a nagging feeling. I have no examples of that and in that I draw comfort.
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  #85  
Old 18.03.2007, 23:10
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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May I ask what research you have done on this? In my opinion, popular accounts as read in the newspapers, or seen on BBC news bulletins, often just get it wrong. It happens quite often that a "scientific report" has the original scientists disagreeing with the way their statements were represented. I think this has as much to do with the technical ignorance of most reporters as the need to sell papers or gain viewers. And why scientists don't learn either ...

One should go as close as possible to the science, because that takes you closer to the data. It is the data that are used to support the scientists' conclusions, and it is the data that are scrutinised by their peers. Scientific debate is (usually!) of a rather different character than you might see on the BBC's Newsnight, Question Time or especially Prime Minister's QT. In science, the less conclusive the data supporting a theory, the more the debate looks like a political argument.

I agree it is hyped at the moment, but you have to do better than make up your mind by weighing up the polemics and arguments that go on in the media. Is your decision based upon an emotional, value judgement calculated from how you "feel" about the people arguing this way or that? Or are you being objective, having looked at facts?

Climate scientists have been theorising about the effects of climate change for decades now. The general public are only now becoming aware of it (the hype you speak of). It's even getting through the self-interested, technically and scientifically retarded skulls of our corrupt political leaders.

The scientists, however, have become more and more forthright because over time their datasets are more extensive over time and in depth, and their models are better. And the models are predicting some nasty scenarios.

Dig a little deeper, and I feel you would probably reverse your opinion, or even decide the official IPCC scenarios are too optimistic. At the same time, you might emerge better equipped, knowing such things as the basic assumptions and the weakest assumptions.
The question is not whether or not climate change is happening, it clearly is.

The question is if CO2, a harmless gas that makes up just 0.4% of the air, most of which is from nature, is causing it.

Whatever way you look at it, this is an absurd thing to say, it is IMPOSSIBLE - like saying that superman exists and can heat up the earth permanently by blowing on it.

When I started this thread, I thought that this would by blatantly obvious to everyone on this forum, judging from the quality of the other posts that I read. I thought that the responses would address the question of why?

Why this organized campaign against CO2, which is in fact a nutrient - plant life depends on it? Why are politicians, media and their huge army of very clever, clever scientists telling us that CO2 is heating the world up?

Who is pulling the strings?

From the responses that have been posted here, I'm wondering why so many people here are so adamant that CO2 = Global Warming?

Do you really believe that?

In theory, in an ideal, romanticized world, scientists rely on evidence, based on the raw data - in practice this is never the case as we are all likely to be in the pay of vested interests in one form or another. At the moment I'm doing some consultancy work for a subsidiary of Haliburton - do you suppose that I, or anyone else in the pay of haliburton or doing business with them can say anything in public against the interests of or even without the permission of haliburton?

Do you really believe that David Kelly killed himself?

The BBC Radio 4 debate about whether or not CO2 = Global Warming ended with the quote I mentioned from Voltaire about the dangers of going against the authorities.

Reading between the lines, why would the program have ended with that quote?
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  #86  
Old 07.05.2007, 12:49
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

This is an interesting counter-argument (by the same mentality:

http://www.newswithviews.com/DeWeese/tom82.htm

It seems that when people argue 'pro' global warming they say its this nasty CO2 that is causing it (which is an absurd statement, and ignores the very real fact of global pollution caused by the growing billions of tons of industrial pollutants, CO2 NOT being one of them),

when you see counter arguments it's along the lines that because all these 'Global Warmers', new agers, greens, environmentalists, etc are nutters, in it for the money, or plain stupid, then clearly the industrialists/global cartels can continue their systematic destruction of the planet!

Either way the argument goes there is only one winner.
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  #87  
Old 07.05.2007, 14:07
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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And my children think there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.

However this has nothing to do with science and therefore has no place in any science based debate.
And this is a scienced based debate? I kinda thought it was just a troll fest to pass a boring Monday
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  #88  
Old 07.05.2007, 15:08
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

So Sparks, what's your take on the matter? Aren't the great masses of the working classes told time and time again "if you don't like it come up with a solution." I'm not scientifically educated but rather than tell this gentleman he's talking crap, my greatest desire would be to bring up a counter argument with facts not only that i believe in but could back up with a greater understanding of the situation. If i could go a step further i'd like to convey my considerations on a basis that people of all walks of life could grasp.

Saying all that, it is quite obvious that i live in Cuckoo land
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  #89  
Old 07.05.2007, 15:20
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

he he.

is this debate still going on?

although it's kind of cool to hear how everyone perceives such a serious problem. global warming that is, not fairies at the bottom of the garden.
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  #90  
Old 07.05.2007, 16:45
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Plot showing temperature against amount of C02 in the atmosphere. Don't ask me questions about the data because I don't know. I just thought it would be interesting to show in this thread. The plot shows a correlattion of global temp to CO2 production.

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  #91  
Old 08.05.2007, 10:46
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Well, there you have it - end of discussion.

All the proof that anyone could ever need. And if can get your stooges at the UN, politicians, media then pretty soon you'll have the entire world actually believe that CO2 can raise world temperature by 700%.

If someone points out that the data is total nonsense - label him a heretic. At the same time build up a 'heretic' lobby of your own that says something equally absurd - like the global industrial cartels are not polluting the air, water and food supplies, rain forests are not disappearing, the planet is not dying from the billions and billions of tons of toxic industrial waste.

DavidH mentioned fairy tales - we'll you should read your kids Hans Christian Andersons: The Emperors new Clothes.

Nowadays, of course, the emperors wear many different New Clothes - a harmless, odorless gas with magically powerful heating properties being just one of them. 911 was another.


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Plot showing temperature against amount of C02 in the atmosphere. Don't ask me questions about the data because I don't know. I just thought it would be interesting to show in this thread. The plot shows a correlattion of global temp to CO2 production.

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  #92  
Old 08.05.2007, 11:11
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

James, who is telling the fairy tales ? ... Harmless ? Hardly ....

"Carbon dioxide content in fresh air varies and is between 0.03% (300 ppm) and 0.06% (600 ppm), depending on location (see graphical map of CO2 in real-time) and in exhaled air approximately 4.5%. When inhaled in high concentrations (greater than 5% by volume), it is immediately dangerous to the life and health of humans and other animals. The current threshold limit value (TLV) or maximum level that is considered safe for healthy adults for an 8-hour work day is 0.5% (5000 ppm). The maximum safe level for infants, children, the elderly and individuals with cardio-pulmonary health issues would be significantly less."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

But of course, all the contributors to Wikipedia are all part of your conspiracy theory as well ?
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  #93  
Old 08.05.2007, 11:20
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

& just to back it up a little further ...

"Acute carbon dioxide toxicity is sometimes known as Choke damp, an old mining industry term, and was the cause of deaths at Lake Nyos in Cameroon, where an upwelling of CO2-laden lake water in 1986 covered a wide area in a blanket of the gas, killing nearly 2000. The lowering of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is largely due to absorption by plants, which convert it to sugars through photosynthesis. Phytoplankton photosynthesis absorbs dissolved CO2 in the upper ocean and thereby promotes the absorption of CO2 from the atmosphere."
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  #94  
Old 08.05.2007, 11:54
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Somehow I wish that all Global Warming sceptics would be invited
  • to a labratory so they can see in a spectral analysis that CO2 in fact absorbs certain wavelengths of sunlight and therefor really is a greenhouse gas
  • to the pole cap drill holes so they can see that the air samples trapped in the ice in fact come from deep down
  • to the many thousand wood samples so they can see that science in fact is able to estimate the temperature of past summers, oh and show them a C14-analysis, too
  • to a modern air control station so they can see that our athmosphere contains 5ppm CO2 more than any ice core sample of the last 400'000 years
Well that would be very expensive. And we still were stuck with the creationists (sorry: intelligent designers), 9/11ers, chemtrailers...
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  #95  
Old 08.05.2007, 12:09
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

What's forgotten on this subject is the secondary affects of warming with much nastier greenhouse gases such as methane.

Melting Siberia (thanks to increase in temp from CO2 + others) releases plenty of this stuff from the peat bogs which is x10 more potent as a greenhouse gas. (Don't quote me but I know it has a much more dramatic affect.)

They are even seeing this affect in the UK and acedemics have suddenly realised that this could be far more sinister than CO2.

On another note, anyone heard of global dimming?? Something to look up!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming
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  #96  
Old 09.05.2007, 12:34
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

This is again manipulating figures to make a point.

Would you say that water was harmless? We need approx 2.5 litres water per day. What would happen if you tripled that intake? It might kill you.

The air has about 0.03% CO2 on average. It was at this level when it discovered in 1754, and is at the same level today.

Air with CO2 of 4.5% is a something like a 1000 fold increase - and even at that level CO2 won't kill you. So, yes it is harmless.

With indoor air you can get levels this high from the respiration of the people in the room - the solution is not to stop the people from breathing, but to open the windows.

What happens in coal mines is something different.



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James, who is telling the fairy tales ? ... Harmless ? Hardly ....

"Carbon dioxide content in fresh air varies and is between 0.03% (300 ppm) and 0.06% (600 ppm), depending on location (see graphical map of CO2 in real-time) and in exhaled air approximately 4.5%. When inhaled in high concentrations (greater than 5% by volume), it is immediately dangerous to the life and health of humans and other animals. The current threshold limit value (TLV) or maximum level that is considered safe for healthy adults for an 8-hour work day is 0.5% (5000 ppm). The maximum safe level for infants, children, the elderly and individuals with cardio-pulmonary health issues would be significantly less."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

But of course, all the contributors to Wikipedia are all part of your conspiracy theory as well ?
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  #97  
Old 09.05.2007, 12:38
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

So what we need to though is to "open windows into space so that excess CO2 is evacuated" really...

James, you are that mad professor on the Fast Show, aren't you, the one that sees space bats...?
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  #98  
Old 09.05.2007, 12:44
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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This is again manipulating figures to make a point.

Would you say that water was harmless? We need approx 2.5 litres water per day. What would happen if you tripled that intake? It might kill you.

The air has about 0.03% CO2 on average. It was at this level when it discovered in 1754, and is at the same level today.

Air with CO2 of 4.5% is a something like a 1000 fold increase - and even at that level CO2 won't kill you. So, yes it is harmless.

With indoor air you can get levels this high from the respiration of the people in the room - the solution is not to stop the people from breathing, but to open the windows.

What happens in coal mines is something different.
There seems to be a lot of "fudging" figures going on recently on numerous subjects and their scientific findings, the only thing I can say really is to contemplate "who would benefit from this?"

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions, but those who shout loudest with the most money get what they want. Is this a example of true democracy in progress?
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  #99  
Old 09.05.2007, 12:47
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

A confident prediction...

Sometime after the beginning of July, there will be a volcano eruption somewhere in the world of such a magnitude that fears about Global warming will be replaced by fears of what of how cold the subsequent blocking of sunlight will make it.

I'm never wrong, but sometimes mistaken
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  #100  
Old 09.05.2007, 13:24
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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A confident prediction...

Sometime after the beginning of July, there will be a volcano eruption somewhere in the world of such a magnitude that fears about Global warming will be replaced by fears of what of how cold the subsequent blocking of sunlight will make it.

I'm never wrong, but sometimes mistaken
I don't think that you need to be psychic to know that will happen at some point in the future given how many volcanoes are "overdue".
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