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  #1081  
Old 21.02.2011, 23:34
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

And there are even some idiots out there who think the world is round.
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  #1082  
Old 22.02.2011, 00:00
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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About " If we look at the people who live on day to day basis they are affected tremendously by the little changes in climate"

Some people live happily in the frozen Northern wastes & others in the tropics. Same biological people, same humans; wide differences in climate?
If we look at the people you suggested (those living in the frozen waste) we also see they are also affected and rely more on imported food they find at the supermarkets. Those who have to live day to day find it more difficult either in the northern poles or the arid sands.

If you truly believe the eco system to be robust then bring your arguments in a logical manner. Your questions so far are looking at if eco systems are robust or not and still doesnt address James original questions if climate change is just propoganda?
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  #1083  
Old 22.02.2011, 07:28
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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If we look at the people you suggested (those living in the frozen waste) we also see they are also affected and rely more on imported food they find at the supermarkets. Those who have to live day to day find it more difficult either in the northern poles or the arid sands.

If you truly believe the eco system to be robust then bring your arguments in a logical manner. Your questions so far are looking at if eco systems are robust or not and still doesnt address James original questions if climate change is just propoganda?
I'm sorry, as someone with an open mind on this and little scientific knowledge, I find your last few post in this thread confusing to say the least.

Why should Marton put forward "arguments in a logical manner", when you haven't! You stated "the eco system is a delicate thing". Then side step that statement when challenged.

What are the figures for CO2? What is the current % of CO2 in the atmosphere? What was it 10, 50 and 100 years ago. How much change is attributable to human activity? Clear answers to these questions would be most helpful...
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  #1084  
Old 22.02.2011, 11:42
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I'm sorry, as someone with an open mind on this and little scientific knowledge, I find your last few post in this thread confusing to say the least.

Why should Marton put forward "arguments in a logical manner", when you haven't! You stated "the eco system is a delicate thing". Then side step that statement when challenged.

What are the figures for CO2? What is the current % of CO2 in the atmosphere? What was it 10, 50 and 100 years ago. How much change is attributable to human activity? Clear answers to these questions would be most helpful...

Adfab experts agree that the planet's carbon balance is shifting.Particularly as a result of fossil fuel combustion and changing land use, we have unbalanced the carbon flow between the atmosphere, oceans and terrestrial ecosystems. The resulting greenhouse effect reflects a 28 percent or more rise in the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide (CO2) over the past 150 years.
The Earth has increased in temperatureby about 5 degrees Celcius over the past century. The increase in concentration of the main greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide and methane is seen by many scientists as the main reason for this effect, the so called “Global Warming”. If we keep producing theses gases without neutralizing them, environmental damages are predicted. These damages will not only cause natural catastrophes like floods and droughts but also affect our health and economic development.


Marton argues if the eco system is fragile or not and pulls out an argument out of the air, saying that "Some people live happily in the frozen Northern wastes & others in the tropics. Same biological people, same humans; wide differences in climate?" ..then I think you are very illogical AbFab if you think that makes sense.


If you or Marton cannot make any logical arguments on if a eco system is robust or not then obviously your argument is weak.



As always people with little knowledge try to distract the original question If this is all propaganda or pop politics?


If you now say where is the source of your information I will say read a book.
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  #1085  
Old 22.02.2011, 12:16
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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If you or Marton cannot make any logical arguments on if a eco system is robust or not then obviously your argument is weak.

As always people with little knowledge try to distract the original question If this is all propaganda or pop politics?

If you now say where is the source of your information I will say read a book.
Sadly your response is very discouraging. I am open to facts on this subject - like 99% of the world's population I am NOT an expert. But it is 99% of the world's population who apparently have to change their lifestyle to avoid disaster.

Asking me to read a book is not going to persuade me to your way of thinking, whatever smiley you follow it with.

I did read Wikipedia and it said:

Wikipedia reference-linkFive hundred million years ago carbon dioxide was 20 times more prevalent than today

This suggests to me that the eco system is robust. You say the "eco system is delicate", then say it is and it isn't and that it depends on "perspective". Also that humans as "a delicate sometimes robust organism" - which is it?

Also on CO2 concentration:Wikipedia reference-link..varies between 0.036% (360 ppm) and 0.039% (390 ppm), depending on the location
So as you state "a 28 percent or more rise in the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide (CO2) over the past 150 years." is in absolute terms very little - after all it has been 2000% higher (see first Wikipedia quote) and we are still here.

Some pages back in this thread I explained that I (and many others) remain on the fence. I will remain there too until simple, logical and supported explanations are put forward...
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  #1086  
Old 22.02.2011, 12:29
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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This suggests to me that the eco system is robust. You say the "eco system is delicate", then say it is and it isn't and that it depends on "perspective". Also that humans as "a delicate sometimes robust organism" - which is it?
The ecosystem, as a whole is robust, no doubt it will adapt, the question is how will it adapt and how does that affect us. Saying that 500 million years ago there was a lot more carbon is irrelevant, 500 million years ago we weren't around, even if we were, we would be adapted to the conditions then, and not now.
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  #1087  
Old 22.02.2011, 12:42
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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It means that the average combined Global Land & Ocean temperature for the month of January 2011 was not different than January 1949.
One might expect with global warming it would be warmer now?
Well yes, if you expect a completely linear progression, where each january is, say, 0.1deg c warmer than the previous. No one is saying this.

Saying that, what do these graphs mean in the report you quoted?



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  #1088  
Old 22.02.2011, 12:43
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Adfab experts agree that the planet's carbon balance is shifting.Particularly as a result of fossil fuel combustion and changing land use, we have unbalanced the carbon flow between the atmosphere, oceans and terrestrial ecosystems. The resulting greenhouse effect reflects a 28 percent or more rise in the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide (CO2) over the past 150 years.
The Earth has increased in temperatureby about 5 degrees Celcius over the past century. The increase in concentration of the main greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide and methane is seen by many scientists as the main reason for this effect, the so called “Global Warming”. If we keep producing theses gases without neutralizing them, environmental damages are predicted. These damages will not only cause natural catastrophes like floods and droughts but also affect our health and economic development.


Marton argues if the eco system is fragile or not and pulls out an argument out of the air, saying that "Some people live happily in the frozen Northern wastes & others in the tropics. Same biological people, same humans; wide differences in climate?" ..then I think you are very illogical AbFab if you think that makes sense.


If you or Marton cannot make any logical arguments on if a eco system is robust or not then obviously your argument is weak.



As always people with little knowledge try to distract the original question If this is all propaganda or pop politics?


If you now say where is the source of your information I will say read a book.
About "The Earth has increased in temperature by about 5 degrees Celcius over the past century"

10 times too much mate - actually increased by about one half a degree C.
Exaggerating your case does not help, nor does using large type & capitals.
About "people with little knowledge", actually I am a physicist & so believe in causation not correlation.
about "cause natural catastrophes like floods and droughts"; most of the studies stating an in increase in such events are a result of climate change have been discredited.
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  #1089  
Old 22.02.2011, 13:03
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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In the UK there is a lot of focus on this, the politicians, media keep talking about it - how we need to reduce CO2 emissions, how we need new taxes on this and that, and so on.

Very amusing...lies, lies and more lies from what I can see.

Anyone wonder why? Have these guys who have never given a shit about the environment, global poverty, suffering that they cause, suddenly become all caring and benign?

The same people that just hit Afghanistan/Iraq with Cluster bombs and others missiles amounting to 1000's time more damage then Heroshima, are now pretending to be responsible Custodians of the Earth. Right!

They say theat over 90% of the scientists believe that CO2 emissions are responsible for global warming - well, if this is the case then those scientists are either mistaken, or paid to say those things.

The earth has been through all sorts of cycles - ice ages, cooling, warming and so on. It is connected with cosmic/solar cycles. The sun remember is over 99% of the mass of our solar system, the earth is totally insignificant.

If you compare the amount of heat that is coming from the sun 365 days a year, the amount generated by cars and planes is insignificant.

So what's behind this CO2 = Global Warming nonsense?
This is the original question that I am responding to.
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  #1090  
Old 22.02.2011, 13:12
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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James nice topic, as you say it should be discussed and we should all make our own answers. The trouble is we pick and choose information to suit our own arguements and so with the vast amount of knowledge available we can also make all our arguments plausible.

I would suggest you start with what people are talking about- that is man made increase in C02 emissions.

Lets just take that example and figure out if it is true or not?

Are we increasing C02 levels, the answer is obviously yes since all activities we conduct have an affect.

Another question would be are we affecting the earth? The answer you would have to look at is in natural sciences do you understand the eco-system do you know that if you affect a system it changes the cycle of things?

We can then look at the amount if what we do is significant to create a world climatic change.

The answer relies on the figures of what we produce and destroy globally, I was in discussion with a multinational company they said they produce 40 million catalogues a year each year, to me that sounds a lot.

I was in discussion with another multinational an energy company and they needed 80 million tons of C02 certificates to offset its carbon emissions each year every year.

This is only two companies I am talking about I can give you many more as there are many more..

I dont ask you to listen to politicians I ask you to reason yourself -of course the earth has been through a lot of turmoil and still exists.

The question is not about the Earth it is about us if we will still exist?

If we have no regulations on pollution or decrease our output of C02 which is not a pollution but as the eco system is a delicate thing, too much C02 will make the whole system change.

Is there reason in this argument? Your arguments are based on if we should believe anyone especially politicians. I would argue no dont listen to them, but really get to know the argument if you do end up agreeing with politicians that we have to do something on climate change. I suppose its a sacrifice you have to live with

I have been watching climatic change over the last 10 years in the poorest places in the world and can easily connect the dots without reading one scientific journal.

When you next go to your garbage bin and think should I recycle I would answer yes because society changes as we all do. We have all this new garbage and incredible amount of new materials new forms of electricity and the countless things we have accumlated in such a short time. We should also know how to put that delicate eco-system back in place.
and this is my reply to the original context of the message posted by james
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  #1091  
Old 22.02.2011, 13:59
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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This is the original question that I am responding to.
So you were responding to a post made nearly 4 years, some 1000 posts and 55 pages ago?

This rather begs the question why you started responding to other posts.

So, after making a few vague contradictory statements, you are saying you are out of this discussion...
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  #1092  
Old 22.02.2011, 14:01
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Well yes, if you expect a completely linear progression, where each january is, say, 0.1deg c warmer than the previous. No one is saying this.

Saying that, what do these graphs mean in the report you quoted?
<images removed>
Yes this puts those two January figures in perspective. Thanks...
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Old 22.02.2011, 14:42
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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So you were responding to a post made nearly 4 years, some 1000 posts and 55 pages ago?

This rather begs the question why you started responding to other posts.

So, after making a few vague contradictory statements, you are saying you are out of this discussion...
regardless of how long and how many post this is the one I am discussing about and stick to in replying to.
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  #1094  
Old 26.02.2011, 14:06
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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How can you even think of taking 500000000 years ago figures to discuss about today's issues?
The ecosystem as a whole is robust, and it will without any doubt adapt sooner or later to most of the changes that can happen to the planet or its atmosphere. The problems at stake are: Will the HUMANS adapt? What will the costs be?
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  #1095  
Old 26.02.2011, 14:20
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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regardless of how long and how many post this is the one I am discussing about and stick to in replying to.
Yes, this is about the only part of your various response I can understand...

(Jamesk himself hasn't contributed to this thread since June 2007 (page 10)...)
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Old 13.06.2011, 17:17
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

An Uncomforable Lie

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However a leading scientist who worked for Australia’s Department for Climate Change for many years, says experts got their predictions wrong and the whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of any global warming is in fact a lie.

David Evans, who was a consultant for the then Australian Greenhouse Office until last year, said: “The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of any warming is based on a guess made in 1980 that was proved totally wrong by scientists as far back as the mid-Nineties.

The whole thing is now a train wreck. Although no one started out to scam or mislead, really the climate scientists are a bit corrupt now as they know they are exaggerating, but there are now too many jobs, industries, trading profits and political careers riding along on this nonsense to admit it is just that.
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Old 13.06.2011, 19:15
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Interesting but I would not go so far as to say it disproves global warming. The global warming theory is based on correlation not causation.
For the last half of the last century correlation between increased CO2 & global temperature was reasonably good.
But this century has seen temperatures pretty flat despite increased CO2.

UN scientists announced last week that CO2 is increasing faster than ever & more than expected. But temperatures have not followed; this year is on track to be the 14th warmest year - this is certainly warm but not so hot as the climate models predict.

The global climate is complex & not well understood....
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  #1098  
Old 13.06.2011, 23:15
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

By Hilary Douglas.

What is your point? Copy 'n' paste from a tabloid article, which alleges that someone alleges that some scientists are corrupt, does not make an argument against climate change. The Express article appears to be based on an April 2011 article "Climate models go cold" by Dr Evans himself, but Hilary Douglas does not bother to acknowledge this.
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Old 13.06.2011, 23:26
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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By Hilary Douglas.

What is your point? Copy 'n' paste from a tabloid article, which alleges that someone alleges that some scientists are corrupt, does not make an argument against climate change. The Express article appears to be based on an April 2011 article "Climate models go cold" by Dr Evans himself, but Hilary Douglas does not bother to acknowledge this.
And therein you see my problem and that of the 99% of the world's population who are not experts, but are expected to change their lifestyle. There are simply too many conflicting and confusing arguments...
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Old 13.06.2011, 23:41
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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And therein you see my problem and that of the 99% of the world's population who are not experts, but are expected to change their lifestyle. There are simply too many conflicting and confusing arguments...
Do you see why the article is not about the science?
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