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  #1261  
Old 31.03.2013, 21:01
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Did you read the last 2 pages? You're saying the same stuff the last guy said...
Sounds like you are either incapable or too lazy to answer my questions.
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  #1262  
Old 31.03.2013, 22:20
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I'm curious as to just what exactly a skeptic or non-skeptic would consider to be a reliable source of information regarding climate change...(?)

I asked myself this after just doing a bit of research online. For example, here's a page from Nasa.gov:

http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

After reading this, I asked myself whether or not I would consider NASA a reliable source. Yet I can't find a reason why I shouldn't.

The majority of skeptical information (that denies climate change) seems to come from non-Scientific sources. Or so I've found.

Can someone point me to a reliable, scientific source that denies the reality of climate change?
Some hundreds of years ago the whole science community was lined up proving the sun revolves around the earth and Galileo was wrong.
Now we have two decades with no global warming! If it starts to warm up again as forecast then I will think again :-)
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Old 31.03.2013, 22:27
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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On what do you base this statement ?
The statement comes from the UK Met Office who are one of the leading climate change centres worldwide. They forecast stable global temperatures (not rising)from 1998 to 2017

If you do not agree with the prediction then talk to them not me :-)
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Old 31.03.2013, 22:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Final thought for the night.
These carbon taxes will be directly responsible for many old and poor people freezing to death in the so-called civilised western countries while these unusually cold winters continue.
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Old 31.03.2013, 23:13
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Final thought for the night.
These carbon taxes will be directly responsible for many old and poor people freezing to death in the so-called civilised western countries while these unusually cold winters continue.
..while simultaneously decreasing pollution levels in our cities and direct environmental impacts on the earth and it's inhabitants of all forms of life, not just 'old and poor people freezing to death'.... (oil spills, fracking wastewater, coal mine fires, motorized traffic and road building, oceanic acidification, to name a few....)
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  #1266  
Old 01.04.2013, 10:19
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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..while simultaneously decreasing pollution levels in our cities and direct environmental impacts on the earth and it's inhabitants of all forms of life, not just 'old and poor people freezing to death'.... (oil spills, fracking wastewater, coal mine fires, motorized traffic and road building, oceanic acidification, to name a few....)
I'd find this rhetoric hilarious, except that you heavily implied that it's ok for old people and the poor to freeze to death if it "benefits" the environment. Looking back at some of your earlier posts, I now wonder if your belief system supersedes even the value you seem to (not) place on human life...
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  #1267  
Old 01.04.2013, 10:38
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I'd find this rhetoric hilarious, except that you heavily implied that it's ok for old people and the poor to freeze to death if it "benefits" the environment. Looking back at some of your earlier posts, I now wonder if your belief system supersedes even the value you seem to (not) place on human life...
No, no implication on my part that old and poor people should freeze to death. Old and poor people have been around for much longer than fossil fuels, and the human race was doing just fine....
It is outrageous to think that humans could "benefit" the environment, and I never said this...you like to misquote and put words in my mouth (not the first time here)...
We are a part of and a product of our environment. Change is inevitable , and the only problem is when we change our environment faster than we (and all other species) can adapt and evolve to those changes.
I place a lot of value on human life, and all other life. Your position seems to be much more anthropocentric than mine.....
I'm still waiting (again, not holding my breath) for you to support your earlier claims. (with evidence, not just your beliefs)
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Old 01.04.2013, 10:49
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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No, no implication on my part that old and poor people should freeze to death. Old and poor people have been around for much longer than fossil fuels, and the human race was doing just fine....
It is outrageous to think that humans could "benefit" the environment, and I never said this...you like to misquote and put words in my mouth (not the first time here)...
We are a part of and a product of our environment. Change is inevitable , and the only problem is when we change our environment faster than we (and all other species) can adapt and evolve to those changes.
I place a lot of value on human life, and all other life. Your position seems to be much more anthropocentric than mine.....
I'm still waiting (again, not holding my breath) for you to support your earlier claims. (with evidence, not just your beliefs)
You can let your breath out anytime, as I've posted several links to videos, analyses, and peer-reviewed (your preferred standard of "truth") papers. My last link was to a list of over 1,100 papers that are skeptical of AGW/ACC. I guess since you haven't bothered to look, we now know who is too "lazy"...
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  #1269  
Old 01.04.2013, 11:33
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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You can let your breath out anytime, as I've posted several links to videos, analyses, and peer-reviewed (your preferred standard of "truth") papers. My last link was to a list of over 1,100 papers that are skeptical of AGW/ACC. I guess since you haven't bothered to look, we now know who is too "lazy"...
I ask you a specific question to fill in a hole in your argument. Only you choose to evade answering - preferring to misquote and make broad generalizations about me and my 'belief system'....
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And with this type of logic we're going to kill our planet and ourselves faster, all in the name of "saving" it...
Coming from guy who believes that he buys no oil because he doesn't own a car, and believes that "trees are all over the place....everywhere I turn, there are trees", and that humans have no more impact on the environment than beavers do, I don't expect you to actually answer my specific questions with logic, fact, and evidence. You'll likely again try to paint me as a fringe lunatic, or try to incorporate religion into the argument somehow, or tell me that I am part of or pawn of some politically motivated environmental organization. (baseless claims)
I ask you the question one more time, as nothing more than one human being in search of truth: How will burning less fossil fuels kill ourselves and our planet faster in the name of saving it?

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Old 01.04.2013, 12:02
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I ask you a specific question to fill in a hole in your argument. Only you choose to evade answering - preferring to misquote and make broad generalizations about me and my 'belief system'....


Coming from guy who believes that he buys no oil because he doesn't own a car, and believes that "trees are all over the place....everywhere I turn, there are trees", and that humans have no more impact on the environment than beavers do, I don't expect you to actually answer my specific questions with logic, fact, and evidence. You'll likely again try to paint me as a fringe lunatic, or try to incorporate religion into the argument somehow, or tell me that I am part of or pawn of some politically motivated environmental organization. (baseless claims)
I ask you the question one more time, as nothing more than one human being in search of truth: How will burning less fossil fuels kill ourselves and our planet faster in the name of saving it?
So, when you can't win the argument with your original premise, change the subject, and claim that's the topic you've been on the whole time? This is the first time you've asked that question, and I'm not avoiding it as I've never stated that "burning less fossil fuels kill ourselves and our planet faster in the name of saving it"; in fact, if you were to actually read my posts, you'd see I've repeatedly advocated for improvements in energy efficiency, conservationism, and the development of more energy technologies. You've ignored this, because my environmental beliefs don't exactly line up with your AGW/ACC dogma. (This is where my comparison to organized religion holds up especially well, as most organized religions adhere to an "all or nothing" philosophy; you either believe in everything that religion advocates or you're a sinner and you're gonna burn in Hell.)

What I've argued against, is this dogma of AGW/ACC, that has been poorly formed, broadly criticized, and repeatedly shown not to be descriptive or predictive. Like I told the last guy, I could throw all kinds of papers and "experts" around, but you'll just respond in kind, and the net effect is zero; we will just go back and forth, claiming each other's experts aren't experts.

I've read papers about how a single large volcanic eruption can undo the entire effect of all the CO2 emissions since the Industrial Revolution. While I'm not advocating for the tragedy and devastation of a volcanic eruption, we have the technology to simulate the beneficial effect, in terms of offsetting CO2 emissions. The Environmental Movement isn't seeking funding for research into a practical application, or to study the potential consequences (a very important question as well) of this technology- they're not even talking about it! They don't want solutions, because then they're out of a job; environmental nirvana means there's little or no need for billions to be spent on the Environmental Movement. This is just one example of the larger issue, where one side is promoting their opinions as fact, saying the "science is settled" and villifying the skeptics.
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Old 01.04.2013, 13:00
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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So, when you can't win the argument with your original premise, change the subject, and claim that's the topic you've been on the whole time? This is the first time you've asked that question...
Wrong, it must be you who is not reading the posts before responding to them. I asked you this exact same question yesterday, in my post from 19:51 pm.
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... in fact, if you were to actually read my posts, you'd see I've repeatedly advocated for improvements in energy efficiency, conservationism, and the development of more energy technologies. You've ignored this, because my environmental beliefs don't exactly line up with your AGW/ACC dogma...
No, I've read your posts. You seem to look for any imperfection as a reason to cast potential alternatives aside as not worth pursuing (If not in your own words, in your thanks to others for their posts. Ex: wind farms damage peat bogs and create noise pollution) You did mention that you think more research is needed to unlock the potential of electric cars. You also argue that it is a silly conspiracy theory that the internal combustion automobile industry wouldn't suppress such technologies. The truth is, viable technologies were developed for electric cars over 20 years ago by GM. After they realized that in the end it would translate into a net loss of profit when compared to the current system, the patent rights were bought up and the technologies were squashed by GM itself.( to the extent of using political might to reverse legislation in California that mandated the auto industry to start producing these viable electric cars)If you have the time, there is a great documentary about the subject called Who Killed the Electric Car.
Again, you try to categorize me and my beliefs into some sort of dogma. I am speaking as a singular person in search of the truth and open to hearing arguments from both sides of the spectrum (or I wouldn't be here in this discourse).

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The Environmental Movement isn't seeking funding for research into a practical application, or to study the potential consequences (a very important question as well) of this technology- they're not even talking about it!
nonsense
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They don't want solutions, because then they're out of a job...
You have labeled me as part of this "Environmental Movement", but I have no self-serving interest to avoid finding solutions to any problems. I don't have a job to protect, and am not a member of any organizations. Nor do I identify with any sort of 'movement' or other categorization...
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This is just one example of the larger issue, where one side is promoting their opinions as fact, saying the "science is settled" and villifying the skeptics.
Nope, Im not saying the science is settled. It will never be settled - that is what is so great about science.
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Old 01.04.2013, 13:04
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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..while simultaneously decreasing pollution levels in our cities and direct environmental impacts on the earth and it's inhabitants of all forms of life, not just 'old and poor people freezing to death'.... (oil spills, fracking wastewater, coal mine fires, motorized traffic and road building, oceanic acidification, to name a few....)
Unfortunately the few Western countries that have introduced carbon taxes will have no measurable effect on the global levels of the things you mention. Reason is the Asian countries who are building more and more fossil fuel power stations; think of King Canute!!!
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Old 01.04.2013, 13:19
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Unfortunately the few Western countries that have introduced carbon taxes will have no measurable effect on the global levels of the things you mention. Reason is the Asian countries who are building more and more fossil fuel power stations; think of King Canute!!!
I agree with you here. I think it is tragic that the US refused to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, which seemingly would have helped to create a level playing field in relation to economic competitiveness, with higher global pollution control standards.
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Old 01.04.2013, 13:51
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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The statement comes from the UK Met Office who are one of the leading climate change centres worldwide. They forecast stable global temperatures (not rising)from 1998 to 2017

If you do not agree with the prediction then talk to them not me :-)
You are cherry-picking data. Another standard denialist method.
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Old 01.04.2013, 13:55
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Some hundreds of years ago the whole science community was lined up proving the sun revolves around the earth and Galileo was wrong.
I think you mean "religious community".

Fortunately for Gallileo, he brought evidence. Which is the key difference here.
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Old 01.04.2013, 13:56
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Final thought for the night.
These carbon taxes will be directly responsible for many old and poor people freezing to death in the so-called civilised western countries while these unusually cold winters continue.
And rising sea levels, food shortages, water shortages, droughts and flooding will be responsible for millions more dying in the "so-called" third world.

What's your point ?
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Old 01.04.2013, 14:02
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I've read papers about how a single large volcanic eruption can undo the entire effect of all the CO2 emissions since the Industrial Revolution.
Like I said. You're a bingo card of denialist rhetoric.
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Old 01.04.2013, 18:27
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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You are cherry-picking data. Another standard denialist method.
And you're not? You've ignored every salient point that disagrees with your core philosophy...

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And rising sea levels, food shortages, water shortages, droughts and flooding will be responsible for millions more dying in the "so-called" third world.

What's your point ?
Yup, here comes the "Chicken Little" Act... "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" If you keep running in circles like this, won't you contribute to "Global Warming"?

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Like I said. You're a bingo card of denialist rhetoric.
And you're a rabid apologist for the Environmental Movement.



Did you even look at the list of peer-reviewed papers I posted?

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Old 01.04.2013, 18:35
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I agree with you here. I think it is tragic that the US refused to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, which seemingly would have helped to create a level playing field in relation to economic competitiveness, with higher global pollution control standards.
Yes because the limited assumed benefit of a poorly written treaty is worth hundreds of billions of dollars and millions unemployed (loss of 12% of GDP per year to slightly reduce perceived warming)...

BTW, Kyoto failed overall, so its probably a good thing the US didn't sign it...
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Old 01.04.2013, 18:37
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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...You also argue that it is a silly conspiracy theory that the internal combustion automobile industry wouldn't suppress such technologies. The truth is, viable technologies were developed for electric cars over 20 years ago by GM. After they realized that in the end it would translate into a net loss of profit when compared to the current system, the patent rights were bought up and the technologies were squashed by GM itself.( to the extent of using political might to reverse legislation in California that mandated the auto industry to start producing these viable electric cars)If you have the time, there is a great documentary about the subject called Who Killed the Electric Car.
Again, you try to categorize me and my beliefs into some sort of dogma...
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