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Old 03.04.2013, 02:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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For one, never having to physically go out of your way to deal with the middle man. Aside from this, the electricity 'middle man' could be a publicly or collectively owned utility company
More importantly, choice. You can today in many countries buy electricity from a variety of suppliers, including niche suppliers. Gas stations are mostly in the hands of a small number of big boys who cultivate a cartelesque understanding of competition. The niche and small suppliers are effectively being kept outside.
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Old 03.04.2013, 09:41
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Back to Global Warming

Iceland has had a warm February. It was recently 10.2 deg C.

That is 0.1 deg C warmer than in 1835 and 1942, so no big changes there,

http://www.newsoficeland.com/home/en...y-in-reykjavik
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Old 03.04.2013, 17:50
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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But for how long do these modern vehicles maintain that level of efficiency and low emissions? There is a reason why old cars are generally not seen on the road anymore - because they are inefficient gas guzzlers that create pollution. If you feel the smog statement does not stand up in modern times, I challenge you to go into your garage, shut the door, start your engine, and take a long nap inside...


For one, never having to physically go out of your way to deal with the middle man. Aside from this, the electricity 'middle man' could be a publicly or collectively owned utility company


Ok, then, plug it in at work. Or in a parking garage. Or at a street side terminal much like a parking meter. I remember seeing in some parts of Alaska and Canada that nearly every parking space has an electric connection for plugging in engine block heaters in the wintertime. Its not hard to imagine.

Modern electronics, especially with more consumer-driven demand, could easily make electric cars efficient at all speeds(or already have). The new Tesla Model S motor has outperformed the BMW M5 in a drag race(from a dead stop and going through the full range of speeds...)
About "how long do these modern vehicles maintain that level of efficiency and low emissions" - basically a lifetime - the emissions are measured & controlled by computer - if the level of efficiency and low emissions changes then a little light comes on telling the driver to get it fixed. Now in Switzerland it is an offence to ignore this little light.

About "Or at a street side terminal much like a parking meter" I agree but this means ripping up all the pavements worldwide where people park to install metered electricity outlets & their infrastructure. Not a difficult problem to solve but does not sound like an exercise that is good for the environment & who will pay for this work? - eventually the motorist.

About "The new Tesla Model S motor has outperformed the BMW M5 in a drag race" I know but what has this to do with efficient use of the energy source?

Finally as I asked before "Where will all this additional electricity come from?". UK & Germany are already talking about possible power cuts due to the various restrictions on power production. Are you proposing we build a lot more fossil fuel or nuclear power stations?
It is commonly quoted that motor vehicles use about 260 billion US gallons per year of petrol & diesel. One US gallon is roughly equivalent to 36KW/h. I suppose you could say that the electric vehicles are more efficient than the internal combustion ones so you need less electricity than a straight equivalent of 260Bn gallons. On the other hand you get transmission losses with electricity which will be amplified if you start shipping electricity to every steet parking place? Either way the amount of extra electricty needed is mind boggling!
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  #1304  
Old 03.04.2013, 18:27
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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About "Or at a street side terminal much like a parking meter" I agree but this means ripping up all the pavements worldwide where people park to install metered electricity outlets & their infrastructure. Not a difficult problem to solve but does not sound like an exercise that is good for the environment & who will pay for this work? - eventually the motorist.
Much the same sort of argument was heard when it was first predicted that every household would have internet access involving higher speeds than a 56kb/s phone modem. That would involve digging up streets, laying cables and spending a lot of money. Eventually, it all happened, and few people would wish to go back to how things were before. Of course it didn't happen overnight and there were early adopters and midstream adopters and stragglers and sceptics and luddites. It will probably be the same with electric cars.

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Finally as I asked before "Where will all this additional electricity come from?". UK & Germany are already talking about possible power cuts due to the various restrictions on power production.
This is probably the biggest problem here, and one where planners are not being entirely honest. More demand for electricity will drive up prices because electricity production will not be able to keep up, even in an optimistic scenario. That's why you're being pressurised by government into installing new fangled light bulbs and other power saving devices into your home. You need to reduce your consumption so that there will be power for cars, and as a thank you they're going to hike the prices.

The problem is that if you decide not to take part and stick with your old fashioned light bulbs and seek to live in your own bubble, its not going to work, because the price hike is going to hit you anyway.
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Old 03.04.2013, 18:35
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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About "how long do these modern vehicles maintain that level of efficiency and low emissions" - basically a lifetime - the emissions are measured & controlled by computer - if the level of efficiency and low emissions changes then a little light comes on telling the driver to get it fixed. Now in Switzerland it is an offence to ignore this little light.
But how long is the lifetime of these cars? Having to get the car fixed is a huge maintenance expense, and largely for this reason even modern cars have a very limited lifetime. And even with 'low' emissions from a modern car, there are still plenty of fumes coming out of those tailpipes. The amount of energy needed to manufacture new cars is huge as well, and therefore we would be much better off if we could make cars that are functional for 3,4, 5, 10 times as long. Add to that the public health savings from not having to breath the exhaust in urbanized areas.
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About "Or at a street side terminal much like a parking meter" I agree but this means ripping up all the pavements worldwide where people park to install metered electricity outlets & their infrastructure. Not a difficult problem to solve but does not sound like an exercise that is good for the environment & who will pay for this work? - eventually the motorist.
The infrastructure costs would be (at least partially)offset by the fuel and maintenance savings...We'd never have to take the electric cars to the garage to pay for the emissions test to begin with, for example. And even with 'low' emissions from a modern car, there are still plenty of fumes coming out of those tailpipes.
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About "The new Tesla Model S motor has outperformed the BMW M5 in a drag race" I know but what has this to do with efficient use of the energy source?
Im just saying that electric motors can operate efficiently and without the performance loss that many perceive.
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Finally as I asked before "Where will all this additional electricity come from?". UK & Germany are already talking about possible power cuts due to the various restrictions on power production. Are you proposing we build a lot more fossil fuel or nuclear power stations?
No, rather that we swap out millions of miniature power stations (internal combustion automobiles) for far fewer centralized stations.
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It is commonly quoted that motor vehicles use about 260 billion US gallons per year of petrol & diesel. One US gallon is roughly equivalent to 36KW/h. I suppose you could say that the electric vehicles are more efficient than the internal combustion ones so you need less electricity than a straight equivalent of 260Bn gallons. On the other hand you get transmission losses with electricity which will be amplified if you start shipping electricity to every steet parking place? Either way the amount of extra electricty needed is mind boggling!
There would be transmission losses on one hand, but never having to go to a gas station on the other(another savings). With either system, the amount of power needed to meet rising global energy demands is mind boggling, agreed.
I have a love/hate relationship with cars. I have worked as a mechanic off and on for the last 10 years.. My largest possession(sitting in a garage back in the states) is a 1941 Mercury 4 dr. Town Sedan, purchased 20 years ago and carefully and lovingly dismantled and restored with my own hands. I would love to be able to drive it around, but it's so irresponsible to do these days that it'll never make it out of the garage very often. I'm now waiting for the development of electric conversion kits (though i'm pessimistic that it'd ever be easy to efficiently power such a huge hulk of steel)...
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  #1306  
Old 03.04.2013, 18:38
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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This is probably the biggest problem here, and one where planners are not being entirely honest. More demand for electricity will drive up prices because electricity production will not be able to keep up, even in an optimistic scenario. That's why you're being pressurised by government into installing new fangled light bulbs and other power saving devices into your home. You need to reduce your consumption so that there will be power for cars, and as a thank you they're going to hike the prices.
I'm going to invent a battery which works by burning oil. There's loads of that.
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Old 03.04.2013, 18:39
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

While approx. 2/3 of electricity is produced by fossil fuels anyway.
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Old 03.04.2013, 18:48
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Much the same sort of argument was heard when it was first predicted that every household would have internet access involving higher speeds than a 56kb/s phone modem. That would involve digging up streets, laying cables and spending a lot of money. Eventually, it all happened, and few people would wish to go back to how things were before. Of course it didn't happen overnight and there were early adopters and midstream adopters and stragglers and sceptics and luddites. It will probably be the same with electric cars.



This is probably the biggest problem here, and one where planners are not being entirely honest. More demand for electricity will drive up prices because electricity production will not be able to keep up, even in an optimistic scenario. That's why you're being pressurised by government into installing new fangled light bulbs and other power saving devices into your home. You need to reduce your consumption so that there will be power for cars, and as a thank you they're going to hike the prices.

The problem is that if you decide not to take part and stick with your old fashioned light bulbs and seek to live in your own bubble, its not going to work, because the price hike is going to hit you anyway.
Higher prices!
@22rp per Kwh we are already looking at circa 8CHF per US gallon; say 2CHF per litre.....
& that is before the Swiss Govt want to recover their lost fuel tax revenue by adding 150% tax?
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Old 03.04.2013, 18:52
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

As finite supply will never keep up with exponentially increasing demand, the prices are going to increase no matter what we do.
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Old 03.04.2013, 18:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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But how long is the lifetime of these cars? Having to get the car fixed is a huge maintenance expense, and largely for this reason even modern cars have a very limited lifetime. And even with 'low' emissions from a modern car, there are still plenty of fumes coming out of those tailpipes. The amount of energy needed to manufacture new cars is huge as well, and therefore we would be much better off if we could make cars that are functional for 3,4, 5, 10 times as long. Add to that the public health savings from not having to breath the exhaust in urbanized areas.

The infrastructure costs would be (at least partially)offset by the fuel and maintenance savings...We'd never have to take the electric cars to the garage to pay for the emissions test to begin with, for example. And even with 'low' emissions from a modern car, there are still plenty of fumes coming out of those tailpipes.

Im just saying that electric motors can operate efficiently and without the performance loss that many perceive.

No, rather that we swap out millions of miniature power stations (internal combustion automobiles) for far fewer centralized stations.
There would be transmission losses on one hand, but never having to go to a gas station on the other(another savings). With either system, the amount of power needed to meet rising global energy demands is mind boggling, agreed.
I have a love/hate relationship with cars. I have worked as a mechanic off and on for the last 10 years.. My largest possession(sitting in a garage back in the states) is a 1941 Mercury 4 dr. Town Sedan, purchased 20 years ago and carefully and lovingly dismantled and restored with my own hands. I would love to be able to drive it around, but it's so irresponsible to do these days that it'll never make it out of the garage very often. I'm now waiting for the development of electric conversion kits (though i'm pessimistic that it'd ever be easy to efficiently power such a huge hulk of steel)...
About "We'd never have to take the electric cars to the garage to pay for the emissions test to begin with" -most countries including CH have dropped the requirement for these tests.
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Old 03.04.2013, 19:13
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Even so, the exhaust still come from the tailpipes. Many countries have never required an emissions test at all, including parts of the US...
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Old 03.04.2013, 19:24
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Higher prices!
@22rp per Kwh we are already looking at circa 8CHF per US gallon; say 2CHF per litre.....
& that is before the Swiss Govt want to recover their lost fuel tax revenue by adding 150% tax?
And seeing you cannot differentiate between electricity used to charge the car and the rest of electricity, that price hike is going to hit all consumption.
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  #1313  
Old 03.04.2013, 21:42
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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But simply said "so what"!! Electric cars use just as much energy as conventional cars (the energy required is based on the vehicles shape, weight & the way it used - not on the energy source) & if that electrical energy comes from fossil fuel power stations then what is saved?
Power stations are much more efficient at turning fossil fuels into energy.

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We also have the issue that in civilised Western countries the production of electrical energy is being reduced (as mentioned in earlier posts) so where will the huge amount of extra electrical energy required to power these electric cars come from?
Solar would be the obvious choice.
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Old 03.04.2013, 21:52
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Simply speaking; the theory of man made global warming is that global temperatures will rise in line with the increase of CO2 in the global atmosphere.
This theory worked well for the last half of the last century but for almost 2 decades now the CO2 level has increased at about the same rate as before but global temperatures have not risen.
Temperatures *have* risen. Just not *as fast*.

Your premise is broken.

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At first they said the time period of the pause was not statistically significant but now this time period is longer so when will it become significant?
Say, at least as long as the trend in rising temperatures - a century or two, perhaps ?

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The loss of Artic ice is often quoted but over the same period Antartic ice has increased by around 2% per year; puzzling isn't it?
Not when you consider the land ice, and thus the overall ice volume, is decreasing.
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Old 03.04.2013, 21:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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My issue is that I don't believe the narrative, as the science is clearly disputable, and the stakes are incredibly high. There are huge economic and political motives.
Ah, yes. Climate change is just a great big conspiracy that's been around for fifty-odd years (at least) that the vast majority of the world's scientists have subscribed to.

There is very little in the science that is either a) disputable, or b) disputed.

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I think those who truly believe it should do their utmost to model a lifestyle according to their conviction. Don't drive a car, don't use light bulbs, freeze their butts in winter, and don't cook your food. Its about all you can do. But under no circumstances should they dictate to others how they should live their lifestyles. That is the main sticking point for me. Because I know these same people do not practice what they purport to preach.
This is a straw man argument.

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Nonsense. Do you drive a car, or ever get into one? Do you turn on the lights at night? Do you use a refrigerator? Do you heat your home, or cook your food? Where did you get the electricity that allows you to get on the Internet? If so, before you start condemning others, start with yourself and your own lifestyle. What you are calling for is a dystopic world of backwards authoritarianism - for everyone else except you. All for unfounded fears. Screw your commie technocratic collectivism. It's not going to happen.

But do let me know if you truly decide to live like a caveman.
As is this.
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Old 03.04.2013, 23:41
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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And you're not?
Not so far as I know.

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You've ignored every salient point that disagrees with your core philosophy...
You don't know anything about my "core philosophy".

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Yup, here comes the "Chicken Little" Act... "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" If you keep running in circles like this, won't you contribute to "Global Warming"?
Hypocrite.

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And you're a rabid apologist for the Environmental Movement.
I don't recall ever having "apologised" for the "Environmental Movement" (whatever you might believe that to be).

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Did you even look at the list of peer-reviewed papers I posted?
Sure. It's the same list of rubbished "research" that denialists parrot all the time.
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Old 03.04.2013, 23:51
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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No, rather that we swap out millions of miniature power stations (internal combustion automobiles) for far fewer centralized stations.
They don't even need to be centralised (and, indeed, shouldn't be). Solar power will play a HUGE part in the decentralisation and democratisation of power generation for non-industrial use.

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I'm now waiting for the development of electric conversion kits (though i'm pessimistic that it'd ever be easy to efficiently power such a huge hulk of steel)...
Really ? How much power does the original engine produce ? I bet it would have struggled to hit a triple-digit-horsepower rating.
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Old 03.04.2013, 23:52
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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And seeing you cannot differentiate between electricity used to charge the car and the rest of electricity, that price hike is going to hit all consumption.
Sure you can. Same principle as "off peak" power.
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Old 04.04.2013, 00:09
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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While approx. 2/3 of electricity is produced by fossil fuels anyway.
Which, obviously, will never change.
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Old 04.04.2013, 00:18
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Higher prices!
@22rp per Kwh we are already looking at circa 8CHF per US gallon; say 2CHF per litre.....
In actual reality, rather than alarmist-world, cars like the Nissan Leaf have 24kWh batteries that will comfortably travel 100-150km in normal usage.

So even if you were doing an American-esque ~25,000km/yr, annual electricity cost (@ CHF0.22/kWh) will be in the CHF900 - 1300 ballpark.

In comparison, a Golf with a 2L diesel engine (~3.75L/100km) and ca. CHF1.65/L diesel fuel, will cost you about CHF1500/yr in fuel.
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