Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1421  
Old 05.04.2013, 14:23
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,554
Groaned at 470 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 19,349 Times in 10,216 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
As others have said, there are storage technologies and some of these have been around since the 1950s or so.

Secondly, the whole point of the smart grid is that more actions will be supply driven in future. This is already done to some extent today. For example aliminium smelters are huge consumers of electricity, and they rely on electricity being dirt cheap, but they don't care about reliability of supply so much as the process doesn't suffer significxantly if the supply stops for short bursts. So the smelters have special agreements with the power companies that they get the electricity at a considerably cheaper rate, but in return they accept lower reliability statistics which means the supplier can cut them off without notice (load shedding) a certain number of times per year provided the blackout period doesn't exceed a certain number of minutes. Today this is used so that if a generating plant runs into trouble and has to shut down unexpectedly or a transmission line has to be taken out unexpectedly due to short circuit or something, they can shed the smelters quickly so as to keep juice flowing to the higher paying other customers.

In future this will develop much more with different levels of supply reliability to chose from. You could thus even, thanks to smart devices, have different devices in your house on different plans. So you want the light to go on when you need it - every time. But if your freezer stops working for 20 seconds every couple of days, and accepting that can save you some bucks, why say no?
About "As others have said, there are storage technologies and some of these have been around since the 1950s or so" If there really are good & efficient electricity storage methods available then how do you explain electricity companies selling cheap off peak. Why don't they store it & sell it at full price?

Answer is that there are not suitable large scale storage methods.

I suppose Tessin is a special case where they have suitable geography for dams & hydro installations so they do not offer cheap off-peak? Or did I get it wrong?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #1422  
Old 05.04.2013, 14:28
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 31,558
Groaned at 2,347 Times in 1,708 Posts
Thanked 38,350 Times in 18,099 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I suppose Tessin is a special case where they have suitable geography for dams & hydro installations so they do not offer cheap off-peak? Or did I get it wrong?
No cheap off-peak power here that I'm aware of.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #1423  
Old 05.04.2013, 14:33
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
No cheap off-peak power here that I'm aware of.

Tom
Certainly is cheap overnight power (19:00 - 07:00 plus weekends) up here!
Reply With Quote
  #1424  
Old 05.04.2013, 14:39
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Solar thermal is used to store heat not electricity; it can be used to smooth electricity usage where the main application is to provide heat - does not help to store electricity to power electric cars.
Not quite necessarily. There is something called CSP (Concentrated Solar Power) which is thermal based electricity generation (mirrors trained on a boiler) and it is perfectly possible to store the hot liquid thus heated in a (large) thermos for later use. Although admittedly this stores the heat from the sun, not electricity as such.

There's a large CSP park going up in Spain right now.

Quote:
View Post
About "Pumping water back upstream in hydro installations" True, I think the first installation was in Wales.
There's a large system up the Taminatal from Bad Ragaz.
Reply With Quote
  #1425  
Old 05.04.2013, 14:41
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
About "If you buy power at night you can get it at a fraction of what peak power costs" True but this is an artificial situation. If somebody came up with a good way to store off-peak electricity for later use then I suspect the availability of cheap off-peak electricity would vanish.
Maybe. Using up the night surplus is part of the story. However it also has the effect of reducing daytime demand which lowers the peaks and makes demand planning and fulfilment easier, also a heavy incentive for the generating companies.
Reply With Quote
  #1426  
Old 05.04.2013, 14:51
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,554
Groaned at 470 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 19,349 Times in 10,216 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
No cheap off-peak power here that I'm aware of.

Tom
Sort of proves the point; if they can store the energy then they do not need to offer cheap off-peak.
Reply With Quote
  #1427  
Old 05.04.2013, 15:34
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,558
Groaned at 281 Times in 229 Posts
Thanked 24,661 Times in 10,423 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
About "As others have said, there are storage technologies and some of these have been around since the 1950s or so" If there really are good & efficient electricity storage methods available then how do you explain electricity companies selling cheap off peak. Why don't they store it & sell it at full price?

Answer is that there are not suitable large scale storage methods.

I suppose Tessin is a special case where they have suitable geography for dams & hydro installations so they do not offer cheap off-peak? Or did I get it wrong?
Nut just Tessin, there are big plants in other parts of the Swiss Alps, notably Glarus and Wallis.

Can you buy cheaper off-peak? That depends on who you are and how big you are. Industrial customers definitely do already purchase plans like that and have been doing so since at least the 1970s. At that time, laundry companies started to program their machines to start at certain hours of the night for example, to benefit from lower tarrifs. Brown Boveri even developed a system using electrical pulses with which the power company could remotely start or stop suitably fitted equipment, and remotely toggle meters between high, medium and low tariff. As a domestic customer you don't (yet) generally have the leverage to demand the same, but with smart metering and such things spreading, the technology barrier to offering the same to small customers is also lessening.
Reply With Quote
  #1428  
Old 05.04.2013, 15:43
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,558
Groaned at 281 Times in 229 Posts
Thanked 24,661 Times in 10,423 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Sort of proves the point; if they can store the energy then they do not need to offer cheap off-peak.
No. If they can store the energy, they can offer off-peak at peak price minus the cost of storage (and although operating costs of storage plants are fairly low, the fixed costs are pretty high - in some cases artificial lakes were created by dynamiting holes into mountains, and the investors who put up that money want to see returns).

As I have explained above, many industrial customers have been benefitting from such tariffs for decades.
Reply With Quote
  #1429  
Old 05.04.2013, 15:55
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,558
Groaned at 281 Times in 229 Posts
Thanked 24,661 Times in 10,423 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
About "If you buy power at night you can get it at a fraction of what peak power costs" True but this is an artificial situation. If somebody came up with a good way to store off-peak electricity for later use then I suspect the availability of cheap off-peak electricity would vanish.
What is artificial about it? It's been happening in Switzerland for decades, and capacity is still being added. For example the dam at Linth Limmern is being enlarged right now to increase its storage capacity. The technology is also happening in Norway, and the Dutch have specially bit an underwater cable link so they can send exchange their surplus electricity with Norwegian storage plants. One advantage of the Swiss ones is that they interconnect two lakes. In Norway you get that too but some of the new projects will see lakes interconnecting with the sea and there are environmental concerns over the results of pumping salt water into lakes. But these are not problems that cannot be solved.
Reply With Quote
  #1430  
Old 05.04.2013, 16:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Posts: 610
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 318 Times in 211 Posts
drsmithy has earned some respectdrsmithy has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
About "Pumping water back upstream in hydro installations" True, I think the first installation was in Wales. Unfortunately there are very few places that have suitable geography so the possibility of increasing use of this method is small. Firstly you need to have a short distance upstream from the hydro installation to the up stream storage to avoid the loss of a lot of the storage efficiency due to excessive pumping & secondly you need a suitable large reservoir upstream.
So because it's only possible in some places it shouldn't be done at all ?

Quote:
Solar thermal is used to store heat not electricity; it can be used to smooth electricity usage where the main application is to provide heat - does not help to store electricity to power electric cars..
If you have heat, you are only a few small steps away from electricity.

Quote:
Flywheels & Good old-fashioned batteries; not really practical to store megawatts.
They are if distributed throughout an entire population.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at drsmithy for this post:
  #1431  
Old 05.04.2013, 16:46
Jobsrobertsharpii's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Z-U-R-I-C-H
Posts: 2,335
Groaned at 173 Times in 124 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,536 Posts
Jobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
So because it's only possible in some places it shouldn't be done at all ?
That's not what the poster said. Now who's making Straw Men?

Quote:
View Post
If you have heat, you are only a few small steps away from electricity.
That depends. Some of these steps aren't that "small."


Quote:
View Post
They are if distributed throughout an entire population.
Batteries aren't effective; even if you give everyone several kilos of batteries, you'll still not have enough storage for any meaningful stretch of time (several hours under normal usage, maybe a 1-1.5 days under rationing...). Plus batteries are full of non-environmentally-friendly materials...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jobsrobertsharpii for this useful post:
  #1432  
Old 05.04.2013, 16:50
Jobsrobertsharpii's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Z-U-R-I-C-H
Posts: 2,335
Groaned at 173 Times in 124 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,536 Posts
Jobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Genuine question here. A few years back there were huge heat waves across Europe that killed plenty of people. The explanation in the media, with various scientists parading across the screen, was global warming/climate change causing the polar ice to melt too fast, meaning less cooling in summer months. Ok, didn't sound TOO outrageous.

Fast forward to last week, with media and scientists trying to explain this long, exceptionally cold winter in Europe. The answer? Global warming/climate change causing the polar ice to melt, changing the jet stream path so it stays lower for longer.

Well, which is it? We're getting hotter because the polar ice is melting, we're getting colder, or somehow both?
Quote:
View Post
For the Global Warming crowd, its both (as they like to take the position that whatever is happening is a cause or result of Global Warming).
Quote:
View Post
Yes.
See, I told you...
Reply With Quote
This user groans at Jobsrobertsharpii for this post:
  #1433  
Old 05.04.2013, 16:57
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Posts: 610
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 318 Times in 211 Posts
drsmithy has earned some respectdrsmithy has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
That's not what the poster said. Now who's making Straw Men?
I'm asking a question to clarify what argument is actually being made.

Quote:
That depends. Some of these steps aren't that "small."
The steps to get power out of just about anything aren't "small".

Quote:
Batteries aren't effective; even if you give everyone several kilos of batteries, you'll still not have enough storage for any meaningful stretch of time (several hours under normal usage, maybe a 1-1.5 days under rationing...).
Living off-grid with batteries is already feasible today.

Quote:
Plus batteries are full of non-environmentally-friendly materials...
As opposed to, say, coal ?

For a guy who constantly claims to be in favour of trying to live more sustainably, you spend a lot of time saying it can't be done.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at drsmithy for this post:
  #1434  
Old 05.04.2013, 17:17
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,558
Groaned at 281 Times in 229 Posts
Thanked 24,661 Times in 10,423 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Flywheels & Good old-fashioned batteries; not really practical to store megawatts.
You are aware what the initial reserve is from where energy comes when there is a slight mismatch between supply and demand on the grid?

Schedulers plan ahead and predict demand down to a resolution of minutes and order generaztion from different plants to supply the power to fit that profile. But although there are ceratin predictable tendencies, in detail it is more difficult to plan and so the schedule is constantly being changed in real time and reservers are taken online or taken off (or plants running at part capacity are throttled or increase output).

Schedulers speak of munute reserves, hour reserves and cold reserves, reflecting the time the different reserves require to react from the moment they receive the order to supply electricity. But even a so-called minute reserve won't come online in a minute but can easily need a quarter of an hour.

So what happens in the interim? Where is the seconds reserve, or the milliseconds?

Think about it. There are vast amounts of energy stored in the generating plants. It is called kinetic energy and it is stored in the rotating mass of the turbine and generator. Let the rpm slip by just a percentage point or so and you have a large quantity of energy you can recover. Likewise, when consumption fails to meet targets and you have too much generation online, the first place it goes before you can start throttling plants is the rpm, it speeds up ever so slightly. It happens every day, all the time.

So what exactly is it about flywheels that makes them so irrelevant for large quantities of power?
Reply With Quote
  #1435  
Old 05.04.2013, 17:32
Jobsrobertsharpii's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Z-U-R-I-C-H
Posts: 2,335
Groaned at 173 Times in 124 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,536 Posts
Jobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I'm asking a question to clarify what argument is actually being made.
Not how it looks from over here, especially considering that the poster didn't mention anything that claimed this shouldn't be done... You love straw-men, why not claim this one?

Quote:
View Post
The steps to get power out of just about anything aren't "small".
Your word choice.


Quote:
View Post
Living off-grid with batteries is already feasible today.


Do these people live the same standard as the average person in the First World?


Quote:
View Post
As opposed to, say, coal ?
In First-World countries, coal-burning is generally done in centralized locations (power plants, etc) that can be monitored and regulated for emissions and wastes. Leaks are identified quickly, and the operator is responsible for repairs, cleanup, and reparations for any collateral damages.

Distributing batteries throughout a region or a population means they are much harder to maintain, monitor, and prevent foolish individuals from tampering or improper use, thus increasing the possibility of some leakage. Responsibility may be easy to determine; however, it may not be easy to determine, and cleanup may become a bureaucratic nightmare..."

Quote:
View Post
For a guy who constantly claims to be in favour of trying to live more sustainably, you spend a lot of time saying it can't be done.
I never said it couldn't be done. I pointed out some problems (that I believe need to be overcome before moving forward) with the battery idea.
Reply With Quote
  #1436  
Old 05.04.2013, 17:40
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,429
Groaned at 281 Times in 187 Posts
Thanked 18,154 Times in 7,618 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
View Post
You are aware what the initial reserve is from where energy comes when there is a slight mismatch between supply and demand on the grid?

Schedulers plan ahead and predict demand down to a resolution of minutes and order generaztion from different plants to supply the power to fit that profile. But although there are ceratin predictable tendencies, in detail it is more difficult to plan and so the schedule is constantly being changed in real time and reservers are taken online or taken off (or plants running at part capacity are throttled or increase output).

Schedulers speak of munute reserves, hour reserves and cold reserves, reflecting the time the different reserves require to react from the moment they receive the order to supply electricity. But even a so-called minute reserve won't come online in a minute but can easily need a quarter of an hour.

So what happens in the interim? Where is the seconds reserve, or the milliseconds?

Think about it. There are vast amounts of energy stored in the generating plants. It is called kinetic energy and it is stored in the rotating mass of the turbine and generator. Let the rpm slip by just a percentage point or so and you have a large quantity of energy you can recover. Likewise, when consumption fails to meet targets and you have too much generation online, the first place it goes before you can start throttling plants is the rpm, it speeds up ever so slightly. It happens every day, all the time.

So what exactly is it about flywheels that makes them so irrelevant for large quantities of power?
Inefficiency. I used to have a uranium enricher as a client and they planned to use their centrifuges as flywheel storage (uranium centrifuges are probably the most efficient spinny things in the world) and even that didn't seem to be enough to be worthwhile.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #1437  
Old 05.04.2013, 18:07
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,554
Groaned at 470 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 19,349 Times in 10,216 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
You are aware what the initial reserve is from where energy comes when there is a slight mismatch between supply and demand on the grid?

Schedulers plan ahead and predict demand down to a resolution of minutes and order generaztion from different plants to supply the power to fit that profile. But although there are ceratin predictable tendencies, in detail it is more difficult to plan and so the schedule is constantly being changed in real time and reservers are taken online or taken off (or plants running at part capacity are throttled or increase output).

Schedulers speak of munute reserves, hour reserves and cold reserves, reflecting the time the different reserves require to react from the moment they receive the order to supply electricity. But even a so-called minute reserve won't come online in a minute but can easily need a quarter of an hour.

So what happens in the interim? Where is the seconds reserve, or the milliseconds?

Think about it. There are vast amounts of energy stored in the generating plants. It is called kinetic energy and it is stored in the rotating mass of the turbine and generator. Let the rpm slip by just a percentage point or so and you have a large quantity of energy you can recover. Likewise, when consumption fails to meet targets and you have too much generation online, the first place it goes before you can start throttling plants is the rpm, it speeds up ever so slightly. It happens every day, all the time.

So what exactly is it about flywheels that makes them so irrelevant for large quantities of power?
About "There are vast amounts of energy stored in the generating plants. It is called kinetic energy and it is stored in the rotating mass of the turbine and generator. "

Do you have a source for this? The usual statement is "There is only a relatively small amount of kinetic energy in the rotating parts of the generators"
Reply With Quote
  #1438  
Old 05.04.2013, 18:13
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,554
Groaned at 470 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 19,349 Times in 10,216 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
What is artificial about it? It's been happening in Switzerland for decades, and capacity is still being added. For example the dam at Linth Limmern is being enlarged right now to increase its storage capacity. The technology is also happening in Norway, and the Dutch have specially bit an underwater cable link so they can send exchange their surplus electricity with Norwegian storage plants. One advantage of the Swiss ones is that they interconnect two lakes. In Norway you get that too but some of the new projects will see lakes interconnecting with the sea and there are environmental concerns over the results of pumping salt water into lakes. But these are not problems that cannot be solved.
You asked "What is artificial about it". The reason that electricity companies sell off-peak electricity cheap is because they do not have an efficient way of storing it & selling it later for full price. As soon as they find a good storage method then cheap off-peak electricity will disappear.
Reply With Quote
  #1439  
Old 05.04.2013, 18:18
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,429
Groaned at 281 Times in 187 Posts
Thanked 18,154 Times in 7,618 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
View Post
About "There are vast amounts of energy stored in the generating plants. It is called kinetic energy and it is stored in the rotating mass of the turbine and generator. "

Do you have a source for this? The usual statement is "There is only a relatively small amount of kinetic energy in the rotating parts of the generators"
There's not that much energy you can store in a flywheel due to physical limitations.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #1440  
Old 05.04.2013, 18:19
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Posts: 610
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 318 Times in 211 Posts
drsmithy has earned some respectdrsmithy has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Not how it looks from over here, especially considering that the poster didn't mention anything that claimed this shouldn't be done... You love straw-men, why not claim this one?
Because it's not.

Quote:
Your word choice.
Sorry champ, your Pavlovian need to post against everything I write has lost me. What are you actually trying to say here ?

Quote:
Do these people live the same standard as the average person in the First World?
What's your "average" ? American ? Swiss ? German ? Spanish ? Australian ?

If you mean can you have things like refrigerators and computers, and keep the lights on at night, the answer is yes.

Quote:
Distributing batteries throughout a region or a population means they are much harder to maintain, monitor, and prevent foolish individuals from tampering or improper use, thus increasing the possibility of some leakage. Responsibility may be easy to determine; however, it may not be easy to determine, and cleanup may become a bureaucratic nightmare..."
So your argument is what, exactly ? That because something might go wrong the idea should be abandoned ?

Quote:
I never said it couldn't be done. I pointed out some problems (that I believe need to be overcome before moving forward) with the battery idea.
Pretty much all you've done in this discussion when people have pointed out various ways to eliminate or minimise fossil fuel use, is talk about the problems involved.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at drsmithy for this post:
Reply

Tags
climate change, climategate, co2, global warming




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0