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  #1441  
Old 05.04.2013, 18:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Because it's not.
You apparently are the expert on straw-men...

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Sorry champ, your Pavlovian need to post against everything I write has lost me. What are you actually trying to say here ?
You. Chose. The. Word. "Small." Is that better?


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What's your "average" ? American ? Swiss ? German ? Spanish ? Australian ?

If you mean can you have things like refrigerators and computers, and keep the lights on at night, the answer is yes.
I'm talking about normal household consumption for a house of about 100 sq. m. or 1000 sq. ft. with a family of 3, using traditional appliances (that being ovens, microwaves, refrigerators, stove tops, washer/dryer, television, and computer), as well as having some means of powered climate control (heat and/or A/C, fans, radiators, etc) without directly obtaining electricity from their power source (howsoever the batteries themselves are charged). Is this specific enough for you?


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So your argument is what, exactly ? That because something might go wrong the idea should be abandoned ?
Here you go again, assuming a discussion of opportunity for improvement/flaws in a plan implies that the person discussing this opportunity is against the plan. Is it wrong to point out that distribution creates more potential points of failure?




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Pretty much all you've done in this discussion when people have pointed out various ways to eliminate or minimise fossil fuel use, is talk about the problems involved.
And pretty much all you've done is call everything with which you disagree a straw-man while not reading any of it, so what's your point?
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  #1442  
Old 05.04.2013, 20:27
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I think we are losing our way. The theme is global warming so suggesting building lots of highly toxic batteries with their associated warming effects during building is unusual.
Charging these batteries from the grid requires a rectifier running at say an average 80% efficeincy so we already lose up to 20% of the energy just to charge the battery.
Using these batteries to drive household appliances requires conversion back to AC with an inverter running at say an average 80% efficeincy so we lose up to another 20% of the energy.
So we already lost up to 40% of the input energy before we have lit a single light bulb.
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  #1443  
Old 05.04.2013, 21:10
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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You apparently are the expert on straw-men...
I've never claimed to be an expert on anything.

I know what a straw man argument is, however, and this discussion is rife with them. If you think I've incorrectly identified anything you've said as same, by all means bring it up again.

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You. Chose. The. Word. "Small." Is that better?
Not really. The topic of solar thermal was raised. A statement was made that all solar thermal was good for is storing heat. I made the point that once you have heat, it's a small step from that to electricity.

Given that most forms of electricity generation outside of hydro and solar are essentially heat-based, I'm struggling to see what the problem is.

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I'm talking about normal household consumption for a house of about 100 sq. m. or 1000 sq. ft. with a family of 3, using traditional appliances (that being ovens, microwaves, refrigerators, stove tops, washer/dryer, television, and computer), as well as having some means of powered climate control (heat and/or A/C, fans, radiators, etc) without directly obtaining electricity from their power source (howsoever the batteries themselves are charged). Is this specific enough for you?
Yes, it should be possible to live off the grid in that context with some small lifestyle changes (though probably no more significant than the move from, say, America to Switzerland).

(Though you generally wouldn't actually disconnect yourself form the grid - the objective would be to reach energy-neutrality on an average basis.)

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Here you go again, assuming a discussion of opportunity for improvement/flaws in a plan implies that the person discussing this opportunity is against the plan. Is it wrong to point out that distribution creates more potential points of failure?
It's pointless to bring it up as if it's something no-one has ever considered. No-one in this discussion has ever presented any of these things as a silver-bullet solution.

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And pretty much all you've done is call everything with which you disagree a straw-man while not reading any of it, so what's your point?
That all you do is present logical fallacies and rubbish "science", like most denialists.
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  #1444  
Old 05.04.2013, 21:11
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I think we are losing our way. The theme is global warming so suggesting building lots of highly toxic batteries with their associated warming effects during building is unusual.
Why ?

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Charging these batteries from the grid requires a rectifier running at say an average 80% efficeincy so we already lose up to 20% of the energy just to charge the battery.
Why would you have to charge from the grid ?

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Using these batteries to drive household appliances requires conversion back to AC with an inverter running at say an average 80% efficeincy so we lose up to another 20% of the energy.
So we already lost up to 40% of the input energy before we have lit a single light bulb.
And...?
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  #1445  
Old 06.04.2013, 02:09
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I'm talking about normal household consumption for a house of about 100 sq. m. or 1000 sq. ft. with a family of 3, using traditional appliances (that being ovens, microwaves, refrigerators, stove tops, washer/dryer, television, and computer), as well as having some means of powered climate control (heat and/or A/C, fans, radiators, etc) without directly obtaining electricity from their power source (howsoever the batteries themselves are charged). Is this specific enough for you?
Personally I lived off-grid in Hawaii while working on a reforestation and timber bamboo project for about two years, along with about 20 other people (living in separate houses). We had all of the modern conveniences that you mention, with the exception of microwaves and climate control (no need or desire for them). We usually hung our clothes up to dry, but did have a dryer for use during extended periods of cold and rainy weather. We had a back-up generator, fueled by biodiesel, that we rarely if ever had to use for domestic energy needs (occasionally we would use it to power more energy-consumptive agricultural processing machinery, such as the shelling machine for macadamia nuts). On the East side of Maui, there were a few hundred other people who were also living off grid at the time (out of a few thousand who live in East Maui). Whenever power outages hit the rest of the island, we never knew about it...
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  #1446  
Old 06.04.2013, 13:19
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Back to global warming...

]http://theweek.com/article/index/242394/why-1600-years-of-ice-melting-in-25-years-is-a-bad-omen[/URL]

seems like a pretty fast pace for melting glaciers, if part of a natural warming cycle as the human-influenced global warming denialists would have us believe.

edit..not sure why the link didn't work, you'll have to cut and paste
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  #1447  
Old 06.04.2013, 14:18
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Back to global warming...

]http://theweek.com/article/index/242394/why-1600-years-of-ice-melting-in-25-years-is-a-bad-omen[/URL]

seems like a pretty fast pace for melting glaciers, if part of a natural warming cycle as the human-influenced global warming denialists would have us believe.

edit..not sure why the link didn't work, you'll have to cut and paste
This is not new news; there have been articles on this topic for some years.

Well looking at the global CO2 levels here we will not reverse the effect so what to do?

Basically we are looking at a vertical machine.
At the mountain top falls rain & snow that freezes to form the glacier.
The glacier slides down hill until it reaches a warm enough point to melt & form water.
According to this theory this warm point will move up the mountain until eventually there is no longer a glacier.

So what to do; basically the glacier is a huge water reservoir in ice form.

Solution is to build one or more dams to catch the rain & snow in a traditional water reservoir.

Positive point is that water takes up less volume than ice so a smaller reservoir is needed.

Negative points are that the geography may not be suitable to build dams & reservoirs &, of course, the costs.
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  #1448  
Old 06.04.2013, 22:36
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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  #1449  
Old 06.04.2013, 23:06
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Has since been properly investigated and shown to be not true.
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  #1450  
Old 07.04.2013, 10:51
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Has since been properly investigated and shown to be not true.
Which part?

That this wind farm was killing endangered birds? That was true.
That a lawsuit was filed to force the utility to reduce the number of bird deaths? Also true.
That turbines were removed or relocated to better ensure bird safety? Again, true.
That newer turbines have been placed in this wind farm? Yet again, true...

So, which part?
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  #1451  
Old 09.04.2013, 09:06
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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About "There are vast amounts of energy stored in the generating plants. It is called kinetic energy and it is stored in the rotating mass of the turbine and generator. "

Do you have a source for this? The usual statement is "There is only a relatively small amount of kinetic energy in the rotating parts of the generators"
Okay, if the energy stored is small, then please explain how the above mechanism works in your view, i.e., where does the initial response energy come from when there is a supply/demand mismatch, seeing active increases in generation have a response time in the order of magnitude of 15 minutes and demand can hop about by percents in milliseconds.

And if the kinetic energy is really so small, why are generators encased in so much steel and why are the bearings so massive?
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  #1452  
Old 09.04.2013, 09:21
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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You asked "What is artificial about it". The reason that electricity companies sell off-peak electricity cheap is because they do not have an efficient way of storing it & selling it later for full price. As soon as they find a good storage method then cheap off-peak electricity will disappear.
No, as I said before, its money efficiency, not energy efficiency.

To run a nuclear plant for example, the bulk of the costs are fixed costs. The fuel costs virtually nothing. Furthermore, adjusting output causes extra costs. So its more money efficient to run the thing at full capacity 24 hours a day and to recover that money during maybe 4 of those hours, than to spend extra money to throttle output during the other hours or store the energy during those hours. Nuclear plant owners like to do what they are best at which is to run nuclear plants. But energy brokers who can milk the peak demand, even if it is only for a few minutes a day, will do so too.

Your argument that nuclear plants would be building their own storage if there was money in storage is like suggesting that flour mills would be selling bread rather than flour if bread-making was profitable.
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  #1453  
Old 09.04.2013, 12:06
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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No, as I said before, its money efficiency, not energy efficiency.

To run a nuclear plant for example, the bulk of the costs are fixed costs. The fuel costs virtually nothing. Furthermore, adjusting output causes extra costs. So its more money efficient to run the thing at full capacity 24 hours a day and to recover that money during maybe 4 of those hours, than to spend extra money to throttle output during the other hours or store the energy during those hours. Nuclear plant owners like to do what they are best at which is to run nuclear plants. But energy brokers who can milk the peak demand, even if it is only for a few minutes a day, will do so too.

Your argument that nuclear plants would be building their own storage if there was money in storage is like suggesting that flour mills would be selling bread rather than flour if bread-making was profitable.
About " if there was money in storage is like suggesting that flour mills would be selling bread rather than flour if bread-making was profitable"

No, it is like suggesting that flour mills store flour at times when prices are low & sell the stored flour when prices are high.
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  #1454  
Old 09.04.2013, 12:33
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Okay, if the energy stored is small, then please explain how the above mechanism works in your view, i.e., where does the initial response energy come from when there is a supply/demand mismatch, seeing active increases in generation have a response time in the order of magnitude of 15 minutes and demand can hop about by percents in milliseconds.

And if the kinetic energy is really so small, why are generators encased in so much steel and why are the bearings so massive?
Very large power station generators often utilize a separate smaller generator to excite the field coils of the larger.

When attached to a larger electric grid with other generators, a generator will dynamically interact with the frequency already present on the grid, and operate at a speed that matches the grid frequency. If no driving power is applied, the generator will continue to spin at a constant speed anyway, driven as a synchronous motor by the grid frequency.
It is usually necessary for a generator to be accelerated up to the correct speed and phase alignment before connecting to the grid.
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Old 09.04.2013, 12:33
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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About " if there was money in storage is like suggesting that flour mills would be selling bread rather than flour if bread-making was profitable"

No, it is like suggesting that flour mills store flour at times when prices are low & sell the stored flour when prices are high.
No, bad comparison, as flour is much cheaper to store than it is to make, and doesn't require any special technology to store.
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  #1456  
Old 09.04.2013, 13:11
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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No, bad comparison, as flour is much cheaper to store than it is to make, and doesn't require any special technology to store.
Well it was your comparison not mine.
Anyway flour mills make flour & electricity utilities make electricity; how else can you compare?
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  #1457  
Old 09.04.2013, 14:14
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Very large power station generators often utilize a separate smaller generator to excite the field coils of the larger.

When attached to a larger electric grid with other generators, a generator will dynamically interact with the frequency already present on the grid, and operate at a speed that matches the grid frequency. If no driving power is applied, the generator will continue to spin at a constant speed anyway, driven as a synchronous motor by the grid frequency.
It is usually necessary for a generator to be accelerated up to the correct speed and phase alignment before connecting to the grid.
That merely explains how they stay synchronised, but it doesn't explain what happens when supply and demand don't match.
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Old 09.04.2013, 14:19
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Well it was your comparison not mine.
No, I talked about making bread and you talked about storing flour.

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Anyway flour mills make flour & electricity utilities make electricity; how else can you compare?
In that the product must have a purpose. You don't do much with midnight electricity. You rely on storage to make it avalable when you need it. You don't each much raw flour but rely on bakers to make it into bread.
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  #1459  
Old 09.04.2013, 14:38
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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That merely explains how they stay synchronised, but it doesn't explain what happens when supply and demand don't match.
You start applying power to them (hydro, steam) and they switch from consumers to producers, though I can't see them storing huge amounts of energy.

Tom
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Old 09.04.2013, 14:42
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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That merely explains how they stay synchronised, but it doesn't explain what happens when supply and demand don't match.
no you don't rely on storage, you match generation to demand.

see here:

http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Elect...etwork/faq.htm

when NETA was brought in, it caused havoc with various energy producers as they had to ramped up and down the generators which were designed to run at a steady rate. who knows what it does to the lifetime of such equipment.

in the context of the national grid: "electricity cannot be stored" is broadly true.
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