Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1621  
Old 23.11.2013, 22:55
FrankZappa's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: France, near Geneva
Posts: 868
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,775 Times in 727 Posts
FrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I see you did not quote the sentence " Climate sensitivity is determined by the strength of feedbacks, of which cloud feedback is the most uncertain "
Indeed I didn't. I just quoted the last sentence of the abstract of a 25 page article. So what?
Reply With Quote
  #1622  
Old 23.11.2013, 23:24
Texaner's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zentralschweiz
Posts: 2,047
Groaned at 99 Times in 89 Posts
Thanked 2,984 Times in 1,429 Posts
Texaner has a reputation beyond reputeTexaner has a reputation beyond reputeTexaner has a reputation beyond reputeTexaner has a reputation beyond reputeTexaner has a reputation beyond reputeTexaner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
...To cut things short: global warming is anthropogenic. CO2 rise is due to burning fossil fuels.

End of the abstract: "That the Earth has warmed and that Green House Gases are responsible is unequivocal..."
Well I guess that settles it then — thanks for going to the trouble of setting us all straight!

I'm unable to find anything more from the cited article than its abstract, which presents conclusions, but cites neither unequivocally credible sources nor any methods of data gathering.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Texaner for this useful post:
  #1623  
Old 24.11.2013, 11:13
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,568
Groaned at 472 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 19,378 Times in 10,229 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Indeed I didn't. I just quoted the last sentence of the abstract of a 25 page article. So what?

The "so what" is that the last sentence was not a summary of the summary and, for example, does not include the "man-made" comment which is somehow a key discussion point?


The cloud feedback point could be important; some people believe the increased cloud cover due to increased global temperatures causing increased water evaporation would limit global warming, I assume he includes clouds in his aerosols mentioned in his last sentence.


It is always difficult to comment on an abstract but the first sentence is a bit odd "The global temperature increase over the last century and a half (∼ 0.8°C), and the last three decades in particular" when everybody agrees there was practically no global warming this century. The article is a couple of years old so maybe he was referring to the last 3 decades of the last century?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #1624  
Old 24.11.2013, 11:55
Jobsrobertsharpii's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Z-U-R-I-C-H
Posts: 2,335
Groaned at 173 Times in 124 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,536 Posts
Jobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I have not contributed to this errr "debate" until now, due to the shrill tone of much of it. I'm sure it's great fun if you enjoy mud wrestling , which I don't.

I just finished a beautiful article in the American Institute of Chemical engineers journal*. A publication that can hardly be accused of hidden finance by Greenpeace. Many of the articles are about how to optimize oil refineries.

The author's conclusions are clear and his explanations are straightforward, for someone with a degree in a numerate subject. To cut things short: global warming is anthropogenic. CO2 rise is due to burning fossil fuels.

End of the abstract: "That the Earth has warmed and that Green House Gases are responsible is unequivocal. The Earth's climate sensitivity and the effect of aerosols complicate answers to the question: how much warming and how soon?".

* "Insights on global warming", J.H. Seinfeld, AIChEJ, 57, 3259, 2011
And there are many authors, with similar credentials that have equally clear conclusions and explanations that support that solar cycles are a much more significant cause of any climate change. Who's right?

Personally I don't buy the heavily politicized, environmental demagoguery that passes itself off as climate science. That's just an organized religion, with different gods, churches, bibles, and idols... Calling it "science" doesn't change that underlying truth.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Jobsrobertsharpii for this useful post:
  #1625  
Old 24.11.2013, 13:00
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Posts: 610
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 318 Times in 211 Posts
drsmithy has earned some respectdrsmithy has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
The cloud feedback point could be important; some people believe the increased cloud cover due to increased global temperatures causing increased water evaporation would limit global warming, I assume he includes clouds in his aerosols mentioned in his last sentence.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/clou...e-feedback.htm

Quote:
It is always difficult to comment on an abstract but the first sentence is a bit odd "The global temperature increase over the last century and a half (∼ 0.8°C), and the last three decades in particular" when everybody agrees there was practically no global warming this century. The article is a couple of years old so maybe he was referring to the last 3 decades of the last century?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/glob...ed-in-1998.htm
Reply With Quote
This user groans at drsmithy for this post:
  #1626  
Old 24.11.2013, 13:01
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Posts: 610
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 318 Times in 211 Posts
drsmithy has earned some respectdrsmithy has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
And there are many authors, with similar credentials that have equally clear conclusions and explanations that support that solar cycles are a much more significant cause of any climate change. Who's right?
http://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-cycle-length.htm
http://www.skepticalscience.com/sola...al-warming.htm
http://www.skepticalscience.com/acri...ing-hotter.htm

Quote:
Personally I don't buy the heavily politicized, environmental demagoguery that passes itself off as climate science. That's just an organized religion, with different gods, churches, bibles, and idols... Calling it "science" doesn't change that underlying truth.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/glob...-consensus.htm
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at drsmithy for this post:
  #1627  
Old 24.11.2013, 13:22
Jobsrobertsharpii's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Z-U-R-I-C-H
Posts: 2,335
Groaned at 173 Times in 124 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,536 Posts
Jobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Blinkered. Do you work for skeptical science or something?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jobsrobertsharpii for this useful post:
  #1628  
Old 24.11.2013, 13:25
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,568
Groaned at 472 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 19,378 Times in 10,229 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?


Clouds
Interesting about clouds; so if clouds are not the cause of lower global warming than expected then what is?


Warming this century
Thanks but I did not mention 1998.
I wrote "when everybody agrees there was practically no global warming this century"
This article is based on re-defining global warming as not "surface temperature" but on "increased thermal content".


One funny part is the quote;
"Has it warmed over the past decade?
Based on the global surface record compiled by the Hadley Centre and the global UAH satellite record there has been warming over the past decade.
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3vgl.txt"


If you actually follow the Hadley centre link (the other link did not work for me) & look at the graph (see picture below) the trend this century (the black line) looks pretty flat to me (not warming) - but do look & draw your own conclusions?
Anyway good for the Hadley Centre that they still show the trend line; this line has recently disappeared from the US climate centre graphs

Last edited by marton; 08.12.2017 at 17:38.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #1629  
Old 24.11.2013, 13:40
FrankZappa's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: France, near Geneva
Posts: 868
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,775 Times in 727 Posts
FrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Thanks for the clear feedback. I will not be contributing to this thread again. Have fun!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank FrankZappa for this useful post:
  #1630  
Old 24.11.2013, 13:48
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Posts: 610
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 318 Times in 211 Posts
drsmithy has earned some respectdrsmithy has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Blinkered. Do you work for skeptical science or something?
Rather than engaging in ad hominem, can you explain why you disagree with the various sources and studies they reference ?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank drsmithy for this useful post:
This user groans at drsmithy for this post:
  #1631  
Old 24.11.2013, 13:56
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Posts: 610
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 318 Times in 211 Posts
drsmithy has earned some respectdrsmithy has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Clouds
Interesting about clouds; so if clouds are not the cause of lower global warming than expected then what is?
Don't know. I prefer to leave questions like that to people who have the knowledge and experience in the field I do not.

Quote:
Warming this century
Thanks but I did not mention 1998.
I wrote "when everybody agrees there was practically no global warming this century"
This article is based on re-defining global warming as not "surface temperature" but on "increased thermal content".
You responded to a reference about the last thirty years. I believe that 1998 falls within the last thirty years.

If you wish to cherry pick solely the last thirteen years, can you explain why that number is so important, such that fourteen or even fifteen years, should not be considered ?

Can you point to a source where "global warming" is defined as "surface temperature" only ? Surely "global" would inherently imply the world as an entire system ?

Quote:
If you actually follow the Hadley centre link (the other link did not work for me) & look at the graph (see picture below) the trend this century (the black line) looks pretty flat to me (not warming) - but do look & draw your own conclusions?
Anyway good for the Hadley Centre that they still show the trend line; this line has recently disappeared from the US climate centre graphs
Perhaps, again, you need to explain why we should only concern ourselves with the last 13 years and not, say, the ten, twenty, or one hundred before that.
Reply With Quote
  #1632  
Old 24.11.2013, 14:12
Jobsrobertsharpii's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Z-U-R-I-C-H
Posts: 2,335
Groaned at 173 Times in 124 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,536 Posts
Jobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Rather than engaging in ad hominem, can you explain why you disagree with the various sources and studies they reference ?
Anytime you'd like, you're welcome to read the tens of responses I've made to your previous blather. I've cited hundreds of sources; you camp on skeptical science and drink their Kool-aid.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jobsrobertsharpii for this useful post:
  #1633  
Old 24.11.2013, 14:14
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 10,568
Groaned at 472 Times in 405 Posts
Thanked 19,378 Times in 10,229 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Don't know. I prefer to leave questions like that to people who have the knowledge and experience in the field I do not.


You responded to a reference about the last thirty years. I believe that 1998 falls within the last thirty years.

If you wish to cherry pick solely the last thirteen years, can you explain why that number is so important, such that fourteen or even fifteen years, should not be considered ?

Can you point to a source where "global warming" is defined as "surface temperature" only ? Surely "global" would inherently imply the world as an entire system ?



Perhaps, again, you need to explain why we should only concern ourselves with the last 13 years and not, say, the ten, twenty, or one hundred before that.


About "Perhaps, again, you need to explain why we should only concern ourselves with the last 13 years"


Well it was the article that quoted "The global temperature increase over the last century and a half (∼ 0.8°C), and the last three decades in particular.."
I simply found it odd that the author quoted the last 3 decades "in particular" when for half that time there was no global warming.
Perhaps you should ask the author as us ordinary mortals have no access to the original article.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #1634  
Old 24.11.2013, 14:22
Jobsrobertsharpii's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Z-U-R-I-C-H
Posts: 2,335
Groaned at 173 Times in 124 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,536 Posts
Jobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Don't know. I prefer to leave questions like that to people who have the knowledge and experience in the field I do not.


You responded to a reference about the last thirty years. I believe that 1998 falls within the last thirty years.

If you wish to cherry pick solely the last thirteen years, can you explain why that number is so important, such that fourteen or even fifteen years, should not be considered ?
Climate "scientists" have been cherry-picking data for decades. Why is it somehow a problem now?

Quote:
View Post
Can you point to a source where "global warming" is defined as "surface temperature" only ? Surely "global" would inherently imply the world as an entire system ?
Again, then why do climate "scientists" pick and choose local temperatures that support their arguments while ignoring many that don't? You can do a literature survey, and find almost as many definitions of "global warming" as their are crackpots supporting AGW/ACC.




Quote:
View Post
Perhaps, again, you need to explain why we should only concern ourselves with the last 13 years and not, say, the ten, twenty, or one hundred before that.
This is what opponents of this flawed theory have been asking for years... Pretty disingenuous to try and claim this position for yourself.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jobsrobertsharpii for this useful post:
  #1635  
Old 24.11.2013, 14:23
Jobsrobertsharpii's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Z-U-R-I-C-H
Posts: 2,335
Groaned at 173 Times in 124 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,536 Posts
Jobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
About "Perhaps, again, you need to explain why we should only concern ourselves with the last 13 years"


Well it was the article that quoted "The global temperature increase over the last century and a half (∼ 0.8°C), and the last three decades in particular.."
I simply found it odd that the author quoted the last 3 decades "in particular" when for half that time there was no global warming.
Perhaps you should ask the author as us ordinary mortals have no access to the original article.
He won't ask the author- he's just gonna swing by the Kool-Aid for another draught and come back saying the same stuff he's been saying...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Jobsrobertsharpii for this useful post:
  #1636  
Old 24.11.2013, 14:59
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: ZH
Posts: 142
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 147 Times in 80 Posts
mustard has earned some respectmustard has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

"Insights on Global Warming" by John H. Seinfeld.

Here is the complete article (ranked 2nd on a Yahoo search):

http://www.ou.edu/class/che-design/d...infeld)-11.pdf
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mustard for this useful post:
  #1637  
Old 24.11.2013, 15:16
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 4,640
Groaned at 255 Times in 181 Posts
Thanked 9,561 Times in 3,589 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

This argument is so tiresome...

I have never witnessed anyone change their minds about the climate change issue. It's like a dogma, really. You can point to all the statistics you want, but people will still remain set in their opinion.

For me, personally, I'm rather glad there are scientists out there who do care enough to study this. But I think the most important issue is not whether or not man has caused -- or will cause -- shifts in temperature (etc.), but how our exponentially growing population is going to deal with climate change, since the earth's temperature will inevitably dramatically change anyways, at some point, regardless of man's role in it.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #1638  
Old 24.11.2013, 22:48
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Posts: 610
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 318 Times in 211 Posts
drsmithy has earned some respectdrsmithy has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Anytime you'd like, you're welcome to read the tens of responses I've made to your previous blather. I've cited hundreds of sources; you camp on skeptical science and drink their Kool-aid.
Skeptical science quotes and references hundreds (heck, probably thousands) of sources.

Not my problem if you never look at it.

Last edited by drsmithy; 24.11.2013 at 23:00.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at drsmithy for this post:
  #1639  
Old 24.11.2013, 22:49
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Posts: 610
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 318 Times in 211 Posts
drsmithy has earned some respectdrsmithy has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
Well it was the article that quoted "The global temperature increase over the last century and a half (∼ 0.8°C), and the last three decades in particular.."
I simply found it odd that the author quoted the last 3 decades "in particular" when for half that time there was no global warming.
Perhaps you should ask the author as us ordinary mortals have no access to the original article.
I find it odd you claim there has been no warming for the last 15 years when there has been.

Actually, no, since it's been pointed out before it's not odd, it's just lying.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at drsmithy for this post:
  #1640  
Old 24.11.2013, 22:54
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Oz
Posts: 610
Groaned at 155 Times in 110 Posts
Thanked 318 Times in 211 Posts
drsmithy has earned some respectdrsmithy has earned some respect
Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quote:
View Post
I have never witnessed anyone change their minds about the climate change issue. It's like a dogma, really. You can point to all the statistics you want, but people will still remain set in their opinion.
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."

Quote:
For me, personally, I'm rather glad there are scientists out there who do care enough to study this. But I think the most important issue is not whether or not man has caused -- or will cause -- shifts in temperature (etc.), but how our exponentially growing population is going to deal with climate change, since the earth's temperature will inevitably dramatically change anyways, at some point, regardless of man's role in it.
Population will take care of itself. The growth rate peaked back in the early '60s, and the population itself should hit its max around mid-century before starting to decline.

"Natural" global temperature shifts tend to happen on much larger timescales, giving flora and fauna time to adapt. The concern with the current warming being experienced is that it will happen too fast for that to occur.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
climate change, climategate, co2, global warming




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0