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-   -   Global Warming - what's behind it? (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/4867-global-warming-what-s-behind.html)

Jamesk 15.03.2007 11:29

Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
In the UK there is a lot of focus on this, the politicians, media keep talking about it - how we need to reduce CO2 emissions, how we need new taxes on this and that, and so on.

Very amusing...lies, lies and more lies from what I can see.

Anyone wonder why? Have these guys who have never given a shit about the environment, global poverty, suffering that they cause, suddenly become all caring and benign?

The same people that just hit Afghanistan/Iraq with Cluster bombs and others missiles amounting to 1000's time more damage then Heroshima, are now pretending to be responsible Custodians of the Earth. Right!

They say theat over 90% of the scientists believe that CO2 emissions are responsible for global warming - well, if this is the case then those scientists are either mistaken, or paid to say those things.

The earth has been through all sorts of cycles - ice ages, cooling, warming and so on. It is connected with cosmic/solar cycles. The sun remember is over 99% of the mass of our solar system, the earth is totally insignificant.

If you compare the amount of heat that is coming from the sun 365 days a year, the amount generated by cars and planes is insignificant.

So what's behind this CO2 = Global Warming nonsense?

Lou 15.03.2007 11:36

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Hi James,

We already have a thread on Global Warming. Maybe you could share your thoughts there.

Jamesk 15.03.2007 12:16

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Thanks, I just had a look at the discusion there - the focus here is slightly different I think, so hopefully the responses are channeled along the question: WHY?

The focus of this thread is to state clearly that the notion that:

CO2 = Global Warming is False

Any one can see that it is false, if it is clearly presented. There is a post there by Mark where he presents calculations the CO2: from breath/metabolism of animals CO2 amounts to some 150 gigatons, as compared with 24 from man made ones!

Man's activities (electricity, cars, etc) have very little effect on climate (they do have an effect on the environment, resources, life on earth and so on, but not on climate).

So why this global push to make us believe something that is clearly not true?

A hell of a lot of co-ordinated effort is being put into this you know - involving media, Governments, Politicians and Scientists.

Why?

In a BBC radio discussion last night they talked about how this was very much like a religious 'Crusade'. People that don't agree with this notion are labeled 'Deniers' (ako holocaust deniers!), 'beyond the pale', to be ignored completely or put into mental lintitutions.

One person quoted Voltaire, I can't remember it, about you need be very brave if you are correct where the authorities are not.

Who benefits from us believing that climate is changing because of CO2 and not because of solar cycles?

Jamesk 15.03.2007 12:27

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
The Voltaire quote i mentioned on the BBC radio discussion last night about global warming was:
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."


SamC 15.03.2007 12:39

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesk (Post 43202)
Who benefits from us believing that climate is changing because of CO2 and not because of solar cycles?

Potentially everyone if it results in the development of new, cleaner and more efficient technology. I agree that it is a contentious issue, and to be honest I'm not convinced by either camp. The politicians are obviously jumping on the bandwagon of public interest. But looking pragmatically, the required change in global behaviour needed to solve to this potential "problem" can only be a good thing IMO, as it will create a much healthier environment in the long run.

ExoticLatic 15.03.2007 13:10

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
There is nothing contentious about our influence on global warming, unless you want to indulge in all sorts of conspiracy theories about "THEM"...:eek:

The few scientists opposing the notion belong to the same ilk as those who denied to the last that tobacco was a cause of cancer, that bunch that pretends that AIDS is not caused by HIV and the lunatics banging on about ID vs Evolution...Good on them, it's interesting to see some counter-points but no one take them seriously and that's how it should remain.

Jamesk 15.03.2007 13:38

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Seems to me that you're assuming that the authorities are benign and have your best interest at heart.

So when the politicians decided to bomb the shit out of Afghanistan and Iraq they did so because they were "obviously jumping on the bandwagon of public interest". Obviously they were so concerned about the global dangers of the CO2 emisions that the Afghan and Iraqi villages were manufacturing that they decided to kill them to avert a global catastrophe.

Oh, I forget - it was the "mad arabs that hate our freedoms" with lethal box cutters that they were after - in the public interest, of course!

Several hundred of billions of dollars of tax payers money is small change when it comes to protecting the public from mythical, manufactured dangers - so long as the public pays through the nose for this protection!

But, you didn't answer the question. Look at it this way, I don't care what you believe (you can believe that the moon is made of white cheese, pamela anderson's tits are gods gift to earth, or whatever else).

I would only be interested in you believing something that was not true if there was a benefit to me from it.

So why would there be an organized campaign to make you believe something that is not true?

Theres a quote by Voltaire:
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
If you're 'unconvinced by either camp', that's because they've managed to confuse you. If tomorrow you were to burn all the oil in Saudi, it would make ZERO difference to global temperature.

If you could trap all the heat/cosmic energy that falls on the saudi desert alone every day it would probably be more then the sum total of mans total energy output. Yet, each night it gets close to freezing in the desert. How comes all that heat/energy doesn't cause global warming? It's a collosal amount of energy that falling day and night, all the year round - and has been falling continuously for billions of years.

The energy from the sun is several orders of magnitude greater then any energy that man can ever generate - it is responsible for powering all life on earth.

cyrus 15.03.2007 13:47

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesk (Post 43232)
Seems to me that you're assuming that the authorities are benign and have your best interest at heart.

So when the politicians decided to bomb the shit out of Afghanistan and Iraq they did so because they were "obviously jumping on the bandwagon of public interest". Obviously they were so concerned about the global dangers of the CO2 emisions that the Afghan and Iraqi villages were manufacturing that they decided to kill them to avert a global catastrophe.

Oh, I forget - it was the "mad arabs that hate our freedoms" with lethal box cutters that they were after - in the public interest, of course!

Several hundred of billions of dollars of tax payers money is small change when it comes to protecting the public from mythical, manufactured dangers - so long as the public pays through the nose for this protection!

But, you didn't answer the question. Look at it this way, I don't care what you believe (you can believe that the moon is made of white cheese, pamela anderson's tits are gods gift to earth, or whatever else).

I would only be interested in you believing something that was not true if there was a benefit to me from it.

So why would there be an organized campaign to make you believe something that is not true?

Theres a quote by Voltaire:
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
If you're 'unconvinced by either camp', that's because they've managed to confuse you. If tomorrow you were to burn all the oil in Saudi, it would make ZERO difference to global temperature.

If you could trap all the heat/cosmic energy that falls on the saudi desert alone every day it would probably be more then the sum total of mans total energy output. Yet, each night it gets close to freezing in the desert. How comes all that heat/energy doesn't cause global warming? It's a collosal amount of energy that falling day and night, all the year round - and has been falling continuously for billions of years.

The energy from the sun is several orders of magnitude greater then any energy that man can ever generate - it is responsible for powering all life on earth.

I'm no science expert, but I think you are basing your arguments on the misconception that Global warming is based on the heat generated by burning things. The problem with CO2 is that it traps the heat, not that it causes heat.

SamC 15.03.2007 14:08

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesk (Post 43232)
Seems to me that you're assuming that the authorities are benign and have your best interest at heart.

So when the politicians decided to bomb the shit out of Afghanistan and Iraq they did so because they were "obviously jumping on the bandwagon of public interest".

Nonsense, there's a rather large difference between a pointless and unjustified war and legitimate environmental concerns. Let's stick to the issue of CO2 = global warming.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesk (Post 43232)
If you're 'unconvinced by either camp', that's because they've managed to confuse you.

Again, nonsense. I am "unconvinced by either camp" because as an objective scientist I need to see all the evidence collated together along with the statistical confidence associatated with each peice of data to be able to make and informed decision. I haven't the time nor the background in atmospheric physics to be able to do that. So I don't pretend or try to talk authoratitively about something that I'm not qualified to do. However, I do value the opinions of people who really know what they are talking about and work on this problem day-in day-out, i.e. the climate scientists. They may be wrong, but I'd much rather place my belief in them than some Google-searching amateur. As with all branches of science there are always a minority of people who don't agree, and I think that they are useful as they generate and highlight new hypotheses to test. So instead of ignorantly rubbishing the whole idea of CO2-based global warming based on the (media-hyped) questions raised by a minority of scientists, why do we not divert more of our efforts into finding out the truth. As an aside, I couldn't give a shit about what the politicians say - they are just unwanted noice in this issue as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesk (Post 43232)
If tomorrow you were to burn all the oil in Saudi, it would make ZERO difference to global temperature.

Bollocks - burning oil creates heat, so the Earth's temperature rises. It's basic physics!

ExoticLatic 15.03.2007 14:18

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
James, do accoint yourself with the basic science behind global warming and do lay off the conspiracy theories a bit chap...

vwlarson 15.03.2007 14:38

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesk (Post 43232)
If you could trap all the heat/cosmic energy that falls on the saudi desert alone every day it would probably be more then the sum total of mans total energy output. Yet, each night it gets close to freezing in the desert. How comes all that heat/energy doesn't cause global warming? It's a collosal amount of energy that falling day and night, all the year round - and has been falling continuously for billions of years.


Mmmmm...not really sure this can be deemed grounds for this discussion.
Let's look at a desert shall we...
It basically comes down to the reflective properties of the surface where this energy is slamming into. We all know that dark absorbs, light reflects. The energy that does manage to pass through our atmosphere does infact heat the ambient air, thus making the desert hot, but the contributing energy is then reflected back through the atmosphere and out it goes, with varying amounts being trapped within depending on the angle and magnitude, and the levels of the ozone and other filters hanging above our heads...

but I do want to say...I agree with the others that say we shouldn't be so quick to conclude and form arguments based on things that we have googled a couple times or heard from another table at a coffee shop. Sure, every one should have thoughts or ideas, but if things can't be proven or shown with hard facts, then to me it is all a bit "up in the air"

tts 15.03.2007 14:43

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Global warming is a load of hot air.

Nickj 15.03.2007 15:00

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
James,

You have a lot of probables and assumptions in your statements with no evidence or data to back anything youíve said up.
However for my tuppunce worth I do think that the climate will change (not necessarily warming but a change) and I do think that it would change anyway at sometime in the future do to the earths natural cycles over the last few hundred million years, human intervention is maybe speeding up the inevitable process .
As for CO2 emissions well as we all know our resources are finite so it canít be a bad thing if we look towards other alternatives now before petrol does run out.

Nick

tts 15.03.2007 15:02

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesk (Post 43176)
lies, lies and more lies from what I can see.
...
They say theat over 90% of the scientists believe that CO2 emissions are responsible for global warming - well, if this is the case then those scientists are either mistaken, or paid to say those things.

And your evidence for this accusation is...?

Quote:

The earth has been through all sorts of cycles - ice ages, cooling, warming and so on.
You are one of those "all crows are black, therefore all black things are crows" people, aren't you? Just because previous cycles are natural does not mean that what is happening now is. You also have to ask yourself, even assuming temperature was the only thing to think about - do you want to live in a world where the average global temperature is, say, 15-16 degrees (i.e. as it is now), or 22 degrees (about 100 million years ago). A global average of 22 degrees might be fine for some plants and critters, but not necessarily for yours truly or the things he likes to eat, in the places he wants to live.

Quote:

So what's behind this CO2 = Global Warming nonsense?
Facts. The question is not whether high carbon dioxide in the atmosphere occurs in ages of high temperatures or not, it is how much we are contributing and whether there is anything we can do to keep things fit for humans (Slough excepted).

RolandRB 15.03.2007 15:39

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesk (Post 43202)
Thanks, I just had a look at the discusion there - the focus here is slightly different I think, so hopefully the responses are channeled along the question: WHY?

The focus of this thread is to state clearly that the notion that:

CO2 = Global Warming is False



Who benefits from us believing that climate is changing because of CO2 and not because of solar cycles?

Didn't they teach you at school that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere absorbs infra-red radiation given off from the surface of Earth and that it then radiates it both out into space and down to Earth and hence carbon dioxide has a "greenhouse" effect? Do you agree with that or not?

If you do agree then if your aim were to have less infra-red radiation be directed down towards Earth then you could achieve that by reducing the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?

There may well be natural cycles. I read somewhere that the polar ice caps of Mars have been shrinking over the past three years and that is surely not our fault. But if we wish to do something to cool the Earth down a bit then what do you suggest we do apart from reducing the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?

Jamesk 15.03.2007 16:04

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RolandRB (Post 43285)
Didn't they teach you at school that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere absorbs infra-red radiation given off from the surface of Earth and that it then radiates it both out into space and down to Earth and hence carbon dioxide has a "greenhouse" effect? Do you agree with that or not?

If you do agree then if your aim were to have less infra-red radiation be directed down towards Earth then you could achieve that by reducing the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?

There may well be natural cycles. I read somewhere that the polar ice caps of Mars have been shrinking over the past three years and that is surely not our fault. But if we wish to do something to cool the Earth down a bit then what do you suggest we do apart from reducing the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?

All organic mater 'absorbs' FIR - water, carbon, protein, etc, because they all have the same resonant frequency (10 to 15 microns). The mechanism is very much like how a tuning fork can break a glass if of a particular frequency.

But water is by far the most important as it is the most abundant. CO2 does NOT absorb FIR more then any other gas because the have about the same resonant frequencies.

If you believe that CO2 gas was the enemy, then all you would need was a mechanism to utilize CO2, as nature does.

cyrus 15.03.2007 16:20

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesk (Post 43291)
All organic mater 'absorbs' FIR - water, carbon, protein, etc, because they all have the same resonant frequency (10 to 15 microns). The mechanism is very much like how a tuning fork can break a glass if of a particular frequency.

But water is by far the most important as it is the most abundant. CO2 does NOT absorb FIR more then any other gas because the have about the same resonant frequencies.

If you believe that CO2 gas was the enemy, then all you would need was a mechanism to utilize CO2, as nature does.

WTF? I can't comment on this thread, it's gonna make me flame, perhaps we are being trolled?

Jamesk 15.03.2007 16:52

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by imnotreallyme66 (Post 43235)
utter crap! its idiots like Bush that " dont believe in global warming" and the excessive consumption and human nature to destroy and ruin everything on this earth that are causing the problems that our children and grand children will have to deal with. its idiots like you with this stupid pig headed ideas that have caused these problems and wont change. take you head out the sand and stop denying the reality!

Seems to me that the nasty Bush (who "dont believe in global warming") vs the nice Gore ("who does believe, but only if CO2 = Global Warming") is a game that is being played.

I'm not saying that there is not a threat to the environment and i've spent years writing about pollution and the poisoning of our air, water and food supplies. But all that was done by the same people that are now pushing the CO2 = Public Enemy No1 bandwagon.

I would imagine that the proposals the the Blair administration have in mind when they talk about limiting CO2 gas have nothing to do with benefiting the environment or our children and grand children.

RolandRB 15.03.2007 16:54

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamesk (Post 43291)
All organic mater 'absorbs' FIR - water, carbon, protein, etc, because they all have the same resonant frequency (10 to 15 microns). The mechanism is very much like how a tuning fork can break a glass if of a particular frequency.

But water is by far the most important as it is the most abundant. CO2 does NOT absorb FIR more then any other gas because the have about the same resonant frequencies.

If you believe that CO2 gas was the enemy, then all you would need was a mechanism to utilize CO2, as nature does.

Water vapour has a greater greenhouse effect than CO2 but then the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is very much linked to temperature! Less so with CO2 though if the seas warm up then it will come out of the seas after hundreds of years and make things worse.

Whatever causes the hot and cold cycles does not mean we should not try to change them. Things are getting too hot, currently, and if we can reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere then the greenhouse effect will be slightly reduced and that might help us. At least it is an *attempt* to do something about it. We can get CO2 out of the atmosphere by foresting unused farming land, for example, building structures out of wood and regrowing the trees and using less underground carbon and instead use replaceable carbon.

And when it comes to an ice age and it is getting too cold then we start burning that wood and drilling for oil and burn as much as we need to.

Jamesk 15.03.2007 16:54

Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cyrus (Post 43300)
WTF? I can't comment on this thread, it's gonna make me flame, perhaps we are being trolled?

I don't understand - why would a discussion that about a topic that is probably being talked about all over the UK at least make you want to 'flame' as you put it?


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