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  #181  
Old 05.06.2009, 12:54
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

Stories like this always emerge after these events. These are 4 lucky people...

Four missed Air France flight
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  #182  
Old 05.06.2009, 16:25
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

There is now conjecture that sensors iced over giving false speed readings.

Meteorologists said the Air France jet entered an unusual storm with 100 mph updrafts that acted as a vacuum, sucking water up from the ocean. The incredibly moist air rushed up to the plane's high altitude, where it quickly froze in minus-40 degree temperatures. The updrafts also would have created dangerous turbulence.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...9.story?page=2
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  #183  
Old 05.06.2009, 17:03
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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There is now conjecture that sensors iced over giving false speed readings.

Meteorologists said the Air France jet entered an unusual storm with 100 mph updrafts that acted as a vacuum, sucking water up from the ocean. The incredibly moist air rushed up to the plane's high altitude, where it quickly froze in minus-40 degree temperatures. The updrafts also would have created dangerous turbulence.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...9.story?page=2
It is rather ironic that "meteorologists" are sure about what happened - which would demonstrate precise flight path knowledge and in consequence estimated impact point knowledge, whereas SAR teams are yet to locate certified wreckage on site.
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  #184  
Old 05.06.2009, 17:03
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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There is now conjecture that sensors iced over giving false speed readings.

Meteorologists said the Air France jet entered an unusual storm with 100 mph updrafts that acted as a vacuum, sucking water up from the ocean. The incredibly moist air rushed up to the plane's high altitude, where it quickly froze in minus-40 degree temperatures. The updrafts also would have created dangerous turbulence.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-brazil-plane,0,115379.story?page=2
Please hop on over to a forum where they will care about your valuable experience, feedback and opinion:

www.pprune.org/

I am sure they will treasure your insightful posts.
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  #185  
Old 05.06.2009, 17:33
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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There is now conjecture ...........

Conjecture/fact. It all seems a muddled mess to you doesn't it?
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  #186  
Old 05.06.2009, 17:42
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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Please hop on over to a forum where they will care about your valuable experience, feedback and opinion:

www.pprune.org/

I am sure they will treasure your insightful posts.
Lol ! I didnt expect there would be an actual forum like this one.
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  #187  
Old 05.06.2009, 17:45
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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Conjecture/fact. It all seems a muddled mess to you doesn't it?
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Please hop on over to a forum where they will care about your valuable experience, feedback and opinion:

www.pprune.org/

I am sure they will treasure your insightful posts.
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It is rather ironic that "meteorologists" are sure about what happened - which would demonstrate precise flight path knowledge and in consequence estimated impact point knowledge, whereas SAR teams are yet to locate certified wreckage on site.

Ah lads, come on... Sure she might be an idiot, and she might insist on trying to pass off totally unrelated statements from various dubious sources as proof for her own wild and rambling theories, but surely we can all just accept the fact that there will always be muppets who can't accept the fact that they know absolutely nothing about the subject that they are trying to argue about...
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  #188  
Old 05.06.2009, 17:52
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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Lol ! I didnt expect there would be an actual forum like this one.
The problem with PPrune is the omnipresent one upmanship and the fact that journalists worldwide try and use some of the forum posts as hard fact and quote disjointed bits and pieces (usually out of context) to make their stories. I post with hesitation on this one, both as an industry insider and part time journalist myself.
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  #189  
Old 05.06.2009, 18:24
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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The problem with PPrune is the omnipresent one upmanship and the fact that journalists worldwide try and use some of the forum posts as hard fact and quote disjointed bits and pieces (usually out of context) to make their stories. I post with hesitation on this one, both as an industry insider and part time journalist myself.
That's why it would be perfect for hoppy!

I agree though that you really have to sort the wheat from the chaff on pprune and be especially wary of people with 1 post.... But, there are many posts that are interesting to read and with the mods working 24/7 we don't get to see the worst posts.
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  #190  
Old 05.06.2009, 19:25
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

First - The actual topic:

I find the idea that a big massive metal construction like an airoplane can just disappear quite disturbing in itself. Not to mention the lives lost with subsequent destruction of many families and those left behind. My heart goes out to them. It is a tragedy and should be treated with respect.

Flying is a risk, just as many things we do are. Am I going to get worried about flying? No. Do I think Air France is responsible... well, with the current available information I would say no.

Second - Hoppy:

This is not just directed at Hoppy but in general to all those who have responded to her aswell.

Firstly, while I appreciate that you are simply sharing your opinion and view of the world, I would just like to caution you somewhat. We've had a recent run-in on a different thread, and I've read many of your posts which seem to simply be little piece-meal cobbled together posts taking excerpts from various potentially and remotly relevant articles to back up your point, or often simply left at that with no lead in or follow through or explanation. While I do not wish to insult you personally or launch some form of an attack, this kind of posting does detract from the thread very often.

You claim in one of your posts that you want to open a dialoge to encourage people to do something about the gross disregard for human life by using cost calculations by the aviation industry. In a subsequent post the full story of the $1 Million value placed on a human life is revealed by another poster. This is a prime example of the sort of thing which could land you in trouble. Swiss-Law actually classes this as criminal as you "knowingly" publicise false information. I personally would rather not have slander conducted on this forum.

But while we are on the topic of putting monetary value on human life, this occurs EVERYWHERE. Here in Switzerland the courts don't even award that much for the loss of human life in damages...

Finally, this forum is here for discussion and debate, people are entitled to their own opinion and we should be able to discuss things without resorting to name calling. However, I must thank Shorrik and Tomcat, this thread has, thanks to mostly you guys, taught me a lot about aviation... my knowledge is limited. Ignorance I think in this case is bliss.

(off my soap box now)
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  #191  
Old 06.06.2009, 17:47
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

[quote=Lynn;470081]First - The actual topic:

Second - Hoppy:

Quote:
This is not just directed at Hoppy but in general to all those who have responded to her aswell.

Firstly, while I appreciate that you are simply sharing your opinion and view of the world, I would just like to caution you somewhat. We've had a recent run-in on a different thread, and I've read many of your posts which seem to simply be little piece-meal cobbled together posts taking excerpts from various potentially and remotly relevant articles to back up your point, or often simply left at that with no lead in or follow through or explanation. While I do not wish to insult you personally or launch some form of an attack, this kind of posting does detract from the thread very often.

You claim in one of your posts that you want to open a dialoge to encourage people to do something about the gross disregard for human life by using cost calculations by the aviation industry. In a subsequent post the full story of the $1 Million value placed on a human life is revealed by another poster. This is a prime example of the sort of thing which could land you in trouble. Swiss-Law actually classes this as criminal as you "knowingly" publicise false information. I personally would rather not have slander conducted on this forum.

But while we are on the topic of putting monetary value on human life, this occurs EVERYWHERE. Here in Switzerland the courts don't even award that much for the loss of human life in damages...
I quoted directly from Mary Schiavo:

Here is some of her Biography:

She testified before Congress multiple times on transportation
safety, security, budgeting and infrastructure. In recognition of her work combating
the use of bogus aircraft parts worldwide, Mary was honored with the Smithsonian
Institution’s Aviation Laurel Award in 1992 and 1995 and was inducted to the Aviation
Laurel Hall of Fame in 1997.

http://buffalocrash.com/bio-mary-schiavo.pdf

I have not put any monetary value on human life, in fact I am very much against it.
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  #192  
Old 06.06.2009, 19:04
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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I quoted directly from Mary Schiavo:
Who also happens to be one of the most controversial IG's of the US Department of Transportation, nicknamed "Scary Mary".

Here is a link to a review of the book that you quote so ably from:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/30337.htm

She may well have some good/useful ideas but also appears to lose some perspective. There is no point proposing measures that will put the airlines out of businesss or make airline tickets unaffordable. What was once a luxury for a selected few has now become a means of mass transportation and it is not possible to turn that clock back.
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  #193  
Old 06.06.2009, 20:27
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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I have not put any monetary value on human life, in fact I am very much against it.

I hate to sound heartless here, but in a system governed by economics, human life has a price. There's no way around it.

I understand your idealism, and it's admirable, but until someone comes up with a viable alternative, there's no point harping on about what can't be changed...

Back to the topic at hand, some debris and two bodies have been found
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  #194  
Old 06.06.2009, 21:00
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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I quoted directly from Mary Schiavo:

Here is some of her Biography:

She testified before Congress multiple times on transportation
safety, security, budgeting and infrastructure. In recognition of her work combating
the use of bogus aircraft parts worldwide, Mary was honored with the Smithsonian
Institution’s Aviation Laurel Award in 1992 and 1995 and was inducted to the Aviation
Laurel Hall of Fame in 1997.

http://buffalocrash.com/bio-mary-schiavo.pdf

I have not put any monetary value on human life, in fact I am very much against it.
That is exactly my point. If you actually read what I wrote you'll see I state quite clearly that your posts tend to be a cobbled together mass of quotes and links from some other source. Which are also often quoted out of context to change the actual "facts".

I never said you put a monetary value on human life, I am well aware that you are quoting this Mary Schiavo, however a couple of posts later the full extend and reason to that $1 Million figure is given by another poster. Do you understand why I am cautioning you with regards to slander???

If not let me make this clear to ALL posters. IF you quote a source out of context, knowing that the excerpts you are presenting distort the actual facts you are commiting slander, not to mention the copyright implications.

Now I personally believe, Hoppy, you are not out to be slanderous but I think you are simply not giving enough care to your posts.

Also I stated quite clearly that IMHO this discussion of the aviation industry in this fashion on this thread is teetering across the line of respectful behaviour to the actual subject matter. The actual subject matter is not the gross failings of the aviation industry as claimed by this Mary Schiavo, but the disappearance of the Air France plane and the subsequent loss of many lives and destruction of the lives of those left behind.

I think, until your life has been utterly shatterd and destroyed by the sudden death of someone you love dearly such as a husband/wife/child/etc you will not comprehend how hurtful and disgusting it is to read, outsiders posting so glibly about a situation in which your loved one has died. To go off and discuss at length the failings of engines and the air industry is just outright disrespectful. There is a time and a place, this thread is not the place.
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  #195  
Old 06.06.2009, 21:08
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

Mabe it has been due to a high CB cloud:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulonimbus_cloud

Cumulonimbus clouds contain severe convection currents, with very high, unpredictable winds, particularly in the vertical plane (updrafts and downdrafts). They are therefore extremely dangerous to aircraft. Smaller, propeller-driven planes cannot cope with the conditions and must fly around them; larger jet aircraft fly over the smaller ones and around larger examples. Larger planes are also equipped with weather radar and wind shear detectors to help guide them through, in the event that they need to pass through such clouds to land. They also can snow because they are also in the higher part of the snowy atmosphere
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  #196  
Old 06.06.2009, 21:34
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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I think, until your life has been utterly shatterd and destroyed by the sudden death of someone you love dearly such as a husband/wife/child/etc you will not comprehend how hurtful and disgusting it is to read, outsiders posting so glibly about a situation in which your loved one has died. To go off and discuss at length the failings of engines and the air industry is just outright disrespectful. There is a time and a place, this thread is not the place.
With all due respect Lynn, there are many of us who spend a great deal of our time on aircraft similar to the one that disappeared. I understand to a certain extent what the relatives are going through having lost friends in the SR111 crash, the Kegworth air crash and the Dan Air Tenerife crash. Nevertheless, the fact that this aircraft disappeared in thin air without any obvious reason is most disconcerting and unnerving to those who travel frequently, particularly as this particular type of aircraft is also part of the Swiss fleet. There are many threads regarding this topic on professional forums also and, I must say, that this thread has yet to reach the depths that some of the "professional" threads have reached.

Hoppy's posts are irritating because she appears to "cobble" stuff together as you rightly pointed out and repeat things that she has apparently heard "Parrot-fashion" without really knowing what she is talking about.

Last edited by Snoopy; 06.06.2009 at 23:08.
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  #197  
Old 06.06.2009, 22:17
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

2 male bodies found, says the BBC.
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  #198  
Old 06.06.2009, 22:47
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

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With all due respect Lynn, there are many of us who spend a great deal of our time on aircraft similar to the one that disappeared. I understand to a certain extent what the relatives are going through having lost friends in the SR111 crash, the Kegworth air crash and the Dan Air Tenerife crash. Nevertheless, the fact that this aircraft disappeared in thin air without any obvious reason is most disconterting and unnerving to those who travel frequently, particularly as this particular type of aircraft is also part of the Swiss fleet. There are many threads regarding this topic on professional forums also and, I must say, that this thread has yet to reach the depths that some of the "professional" threads have reached.

Hoppy's posts are irritating because she appears to "cobble" stuff together as you rightly pointed out and repeat things that she has apparently heard "Parrot-fashion" without really knowing what she is talking about.
Of course the fact that such a thing could happen is very disconcerting and does raise many very legitimate questions. But it is one thing to discuss this with respect and another to do as you say "parrot-fashion" blab things around the internet.

I do find there have been many very informative posts made by Tomcat and Shorrick (two names that just popped in my head first without going back over the thread so sorry to the others). All the news reports being linked in are also still just a respectful trying to figure things out. But as you pointed out there are many indepth discussions on Forums aimed at the aviation professionals. Again I revert back to my argument of:

"there is a time and a place"

This thread simply is not the place for the type of allogations and unsubstantiatet accusations or rather repeats of arguments and reports from 1997... and THAT is my point.

Snoopy - my condolences for your loss. I too used to travel frequently and would if I could now... In this day and age we all know people who travel often and we all may feel concern about how such a situation can occur. I do not wish to argue against that. I appologise if you felt I was dismissive of your concerns about these events. That was not my intention. My post was directed at Hoppy.
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  #199  
Old 06.06.2009, 23:16
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

Of course I have lost loved ones. Yes, I have cobbled together facts it is my way of learning by bouncing things off people I guess I should just stick to bounce the ideas off those around me. I am grateful to DB who asked me nicely to stop. I do not know how the parents of the 11 year old are coping, my sympathies are with them. I have been putting my kids on planes since the age of 7- it's pretty gut wrenching. However planes are a way of life, I will just have to get used to it. So I'm sorry if I upset anyone, I never meant to slander and yes I do accept the fact that I know nothing about it- I'm just trying to learn.
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  #200  
Old 07.06.2009, 01:25
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Re: Air France Plane Off Radar - flight AF 447

I've said this once, am disappointed to have to repeat it.

Don't derail the thread. Stick to the topic at hand. No personal stuff.

Off topic will be deleted.
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