Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 28.03.2007, 09:30
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 4,890
Groaned at 107 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 7,261 Times in 2,685 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Quote:
View Post
So even if a million cctv camera's appeared overnight there would be nobody to watch them, nobody to record the data and nobody to implement new policy based on what they saw.
Which scuppers your earlier argument about wanting a CCTV camera at the scene of a crime where you are the victim.

Have fun.

Nick
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 28.03.2007, 10:04
gbn's Avatar
gbn gbn is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Zuri Oberland
Posts: 2,748
Groaned at 109 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 2,381 Times in 1,120 Posts
gbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond reputegbn has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

CCTV cameras in the UK are mostly useless.
Why is there so much crime with so many cameras?

Here is an article about UK Plod wanting to have them all upgraded

As to why, surely it is as simple as the UK public sleep walked into it and allowed this level of surveillance to happen.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 28.03.2007, 10:20
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Cameras infringe my rights to privacy and are all-pervasive. Why should I be monitored going about my daily business.

Where will it end ? Here is an indication of where it is going. Can this really be justified as necessary to combat terrorism ?
"It was disclosed last week that a London council was placing cameras in baked bean cans to spy on householders leaving their rubbish out on the wrong day."

The footage of CCTV monitor is generally owned by the operator of the camera, and there seems to be little to prevent their exploitation of it. If I had a shop and the one down the road was busier than mine, is it acceptable to train a camera on them to monitor their business ? This is regularly done.

I was speaking to a security guard in one town where he said the cameras mounted on exterior of a large department store were trained not on the building entrances, but across the harbour to the probation hostel. The security guards would monitor anyone leaving the building and track them through the town with a presumption that they are up to no good.

A friend of mine walked into a record shop once and overhead a (loud) conversation on the security guard's radio which uniquely identified him has suspicious, and probably a shoplifter and had been tracked through the town. This was completely without evidence.

I think the police need an equivelant of the hippocratic oath: "first do no harm". The damage to our civil liberties is overlooked in the creeping surveillance.

dave



Quote:
View Post
CCTV cameras in the UK are mostly useless.
Why is there so much crime with so many cameras?

Here is an article about UK Plod wanting to have them all upgraded

As to why, surely it is as simple as the UK public sleep walked into it and allowed this level of surveillance to happen.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 28.03.2007, 10:54
jonnyt's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 65
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 17 Times in 11 Posts
jonnyt has made some interesting contributions
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Quote:
View Post
Which scuppers your earlier argument about wanting a CCTV camera at the scene of a crime where you are the victim.

Have fun.

Nick
Not really, I've never said I think a million cameras are neccessary, I was just pointing out that the 'police state' that people are referring to requires not only more cameras than we have now but more money, people and infrastructure. So I'm not particularly worried, cameras or not.

Obviously, to agree with Mikey, if there is a direct choice between spending money on cameras or more police on the street I would agree that manpower is the way to go, but does anyone really know for certain that the government is hiring less coppers to fund more cameras?

It would be great if we had enough police to patrol every possible trouble-spot on Friday nights but until then, having a camera at every trouble spot so the police we do have can be deployed at a monents notice just seems like common sense to me.

I appreciate I'm in the minority on this one, as I always am when I discuss it with friends. I'm probably naive and too trusting of the government and I was certainly not brought up to be 'skeptical of authority' as others were. I don't for a second think I'm going to change anyone's mind, I'd just love to hear a few tangible example of why cctv is a bad thing, rather than sweeping statements that reference '1984', 'police states' or 'government control'.

p.s. Mikey, insinuating that I read the sun was below the belt...
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 28.03.2007, 11:22
cyrus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Emmenbruecke
Posts: 2,898
Groaned at 37 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 3,414 Times in 1,491 Posts
cyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Quote:
View Post
Not really, I've never said I think a million cameras are neccessary, I was just pointing out that the 'police state' that people are referring to requires not only more cameras than we have now but more money, people and infrastructure. So I'm not particularly worried, cameras or not.

Obviously, to agree with Mikey, if there is a direct choice between spending money on cameras or more police on the street I would agree that manpower is the way to go, but does anyone really know for certain that the government is hiring less coppers to fund more cameras?

It would be great if we had enough police to patrol every possible trouble-spot on Friday nights but until then, having a camera at every trouble spot so the police we do have can be deployed at a monents notice just seems like common sense to me.

I appreciate I'm in the minority on this one, as I always am when I discuss it with friends. I'm probably naive and too trusting of the government and I was certainly not brought up to be 'skeptical of authority' as others were. I don't for a second think I'm going to change anyone's mind, I'd just love to hear a few tangible example of why cctv is a bad thing, rather than sweeping statements that reference '1984', 'police states' or 'government control'.

p.s. Mikey, insinuating that I read the sun was below the belt...
I don't think it's the Government surveilance we need to worry about, it's essentially a red herring, as you state, it's so expensive they couldn't possibly do it and man it.

However, DaveAs' situation is a reality, surveillance by commercial operations is becoming increasingly invasive, with no form of control, it's the real back door BB. Private security firms are already profiling potential trouble makers.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 28.03.2007, 12:17
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 4,890
Groaned at 107 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 7,261 Times in 2,685 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Quote:
View Post
It would be great if we had enough police to patrol every possible trouble-spot on Friday nights but until then, having a camera at every trouble spot so the police we do have can be deployed at a monents notice just seems like common sense to me.
When I was about 18, I got set upon by a gang outside a club and 7 colours of s*** kicked out of me. A cop in a car looked at the scene and drove on by.

Cheers,
Nick
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 28.03.2007, 13:12
Grant Green's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hegnau
Posts: 190
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 63 Times in 32 Posts
Grant Green has earned some respectGrant Green has earned some respect
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Quote:
View Post
When I was about 18, I got set upon by a gang outside a club and 7 colours of s*** kicked out of me. A cop in a car looked at the scene and drove on by.

Cheers,
Nick
Maybe he thought he'd have a look on the telly later on with a beer. Maybe his 'crime cracking quota' was on target that week
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 28.03.2007, 13:27
Mikey's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ex-Zurich now relieved
Posts: 650
Groaned at 18 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 473 Times in 245 Posts
Mikey has a reputation beyond reputeMikey has a reputation beyond reputeMikey has a reputation beyond reputeMikey has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Quote:
View Post
Obviously, to agree with Mikey, if there is a direct choice between spending money on cameras or more police on the street I would agree that manpower is the way to go, but does anyone really know for certain that the government is hiring less coppers to fund more cameras?
Not that I know of. They are probably offsetting the cost by selling the more juicy footage to Sky so that we can be subjected to yet more real life documentaries.

I just think that the government are taking the easy "knee jerk" approach to this problem. Rather than try to find out why there is trouble in particular areas and then invest money to solve the problem at the source, they took the option of monitoring every man and his dog so that they can catch the perps after the act. If you then couple that with the ridiculous target system that the government then impose on the police you end up with a police force that is geared up towards clearing up particular crimes rather than crime prevention.

Obviously I'm not trying to suggest that the police should not be clearing up crime but there should be a balance between solving crime and preventing crime. Todays focus is all about solving and nobody seems to be looking at prevention because the government can't set targets for that.

As for private security firms, I just don't feel comfortable being filmed by these people as I go about my daily business. There should be tighter controls on this.

I would also ban all commercial use of this video footage. Mainly because it is exploitation but also so that I won't appear on Tele Züri in the background of some interview at Sin City while I'm supposed to be at work.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 28.03.2007, 15:21
Uncle Max's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Züri
Posts: 7,582
Groaned at 171 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 8,424 Times in 3,486 Posts
Uncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Try turning the tables: I filmed a group of Bizzies, sorry, Police officers dealing with the aftermath of a fight. I thought they were being heavy handed and wanted to tape it. Ha ha, my mistake. The police don't like it when you film them: two burly coppers came over and in no uncertain terms told me to make tracks, after taking my phone and 'dropping' it. Bizzies...
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 28.03.2007, 17:14
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Albisrieden
Posts: 4,890
Groaned at 107 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 7,261 Times in 2,685 Posts
nickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond reputenickatbasel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Quote:
View Post
Bizzies...
Legalised thugs in uniform IMHO.

Cheers,
Nick
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 28.03.2007, 19:42
Mikey's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ex-Zurich now relieved
Posts: 650
Groaned at 18 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 473 Times in 245 Posts
Mikey has a reputation beyond reputeMikey has a reputation beyond reputeMikey has a reputation beyond reputeMikey has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Quote:
View Post
two burly coppers came over and in no uncertain terms told me to make tracks, after taking my phone and 'dropping' it. Bizzies...
Wow. Where was that?
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 28.03.2007, 22:33
Oldhand's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,010
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 6,814 Times in 2,053 Posts
Oldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

And why was my Daddy beat up? because he was doing his duty sweetheart and waded into 7 yobs beating someone up. Will he ever walk again mummy? no but the video footage will make sure we can keep our home. Two sides to every story.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 28.03.2007, 23:43
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK - Manchester
Posts: 702
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 65 Times in 55 Posts
ExoticLatic has no particular reputation at present
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

There is actually a long and proud tradition of delation in the UK, the expression "curtain twitcher" has not been invented for nothing. In the last few years I have also noticed a number of enthusiastic campaign to rat on anyone suspected of doing something wrong, be it fraud benefit or being asian and looking suspicious (the "terrorism hotline", the latest one...)

CCTV have their uses and I'm not particulalry opposed to them but they seem to be a bit like those instructions you get in a plane about safety, mainly there to reassure you and not that useful. CCTV do have an effect on reducing crime in an area once introduced, but the crims quickly work out ways to escape their attention. Surprisingly, the best way to reduce crime is coppers pounding the beat but budget constraints mean that CCTV are favoured...

Looming behind all that is a creeping paranoia affecting British society, relentless campaigning by the likes of the Mail or the Express, grossly distorted facts relayed by media competing for attention and you have people in fear that there is a paedophile behind every tree and that everyone with a hoodie is thug. A couple of years ago, I read a particularly depressing example of this, a pan-european study on perception and one of the tests was a picture of a man in his thirties, surrounded by kids in football kits. It was asked what did this picture inspire to the polled people and all the countries but one saw nothing in there but a dad or sport coach. Those polled in the UK saw a paedophile...
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 29.03.2007, 08:41
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

The police claim that "bobbies on the beat" are surprisingly ineffective in the crime cleanup rate compared with other use of resource such as investigating known leads.

The public insists upon increased police presence to give them a comfortable feeling that they are there.

dave

Quote:
View Post
Surprisingly, the best way to reduce crime is coppers pounding the beat but budget constraints mean that CCTV are favoured...
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 29.03.2007, 11:53
Uncle Max's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Züri
Posts: 7,582
Groaned at 171 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 8,424 Times in 3,486 Posts
Uncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Quote:
View Post
Wow. Where was that?
SO19 in Liverpool are/were pretty notorious for cruising in their large surveillance vehicles (cameras, lights and riot-proof defences) looking for trouble. (But that's their job!) They were chastised after too many complaints of openly violent conduct, but now just pull their 'victims' behind the closed doors.

Fair enough when there's a huge gangster problem in the city and violent gun crime is reported almost daily, but I've witnessed enough thuggish behaviour from fellas representing Her Majesty's Constabulary which was wrong. I know very few who respect the police in the city, including barristers and other professionals in daily contact with them. Anyway, I don't want to start a Police Bashing thread (pointless, right?) but it'd be great to have confidence in the authorities. Hard when there's so much cynicism.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 29.03.2007, 12:01
Colonelboris's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 1,137
Groaned at 23 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,273 Times in 671 Posts
Colonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond reputeColonelboris has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

My father-in-law is an ex-copper and he reckons one of thebigger problems is that coppers never get out of their cars nowadays. He says it take two years of walking a beat for people to trust you enough to give information and just driving around a town on the odd occasion isn't going to get you anywhere unles you actually stumble on something happening at that point.
He also said that the most effective police weapon at the time was the 'short caution'. Instead of running in a misbehaving kid or troublemaker, a sharp cuff to the ear (or swift whack in the guts for grown-ups) usualy puts them off doing whatever it was again.
The polie round here are bloody useless at times. A car went through the crossing near Tescos and nearly hit us and the baby. I got his number, direction of travel, make and model of car, rough description of the driver, time, etc, but the local police first tried to convince me that it wasn't on their patch so they weren't interested and then told me unless someone else comes forward independantly to make a complaint, then there's nothing doing. Turns out there's a cctv camera looking at the crossing, but that's no good to them either, apparently.
__________________
New book out now: European Bird Names: A Translation Guide.
www.tonykeenebirds,co,uk - photos, paintings and drawings of Swiss, Australian, NZ and British birds
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 04.04.2007, 09:04
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Anyone worried about their privacy yet ?

"Hey You ! Yes you Laddie ! Stand Still Laddie ! Pick up that fag packet ! You know you're not allowed to smoke now either...!"


dave


"Home Secretary John Reid has unveiled plans to expand the use of 'talking' CCTV cameras across the country.
Loudspeakers are being fitted to cameras in 20 areas, allowing CCTV operators to bark commands at people committing anti-social behaviour.
An existing scheme in Middlesbrough has been used to stop vandals and tell litterbugs to pick up their rubbish.
Council workers in a control centre can monitor pictures from 12 talking cameras in the town and communicate directly with people on the street at the flick of a switch.
The scheme has been criticised by opponents as "Big Brother gone mad"."

Quote:
View Post
I think a lot of mistrust about being monitored comes not necessarily from what the present government might do, but what a future oie might do with the technology. It's always possible a far-right or far-left government could come into power and use it in the same way the Stasi or similar bodies might. Also what is recorded now and is not a crime may become one later and be held against you (especially if it's of a political nature).
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 04.04.2007, 10:09
Flashman4's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Haegendorf
Posts: 836
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 455 Times in 259 Posts
Flashman4 has an excellent reputationFlashman4 has an excellent reputationFlashman4 has an excellent reputationFlashman4 has an excellent reputation
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

The link to the talking cctv cameras is here: http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...259010,00.html
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 04.04.2007, 10:52
chemgoddess's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: somewhere, USA
Posts: 1,347
Groaned at 41 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 950 Times in 459 Posts
chemgoddess has an excellent reputationchemgoddess has an excellent reputationchemgoddess has an excellent reputationchemgoddess has an excellent reputation
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Quote:
View Post
The link to the talking cctv cameras is here: http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...259010,00.html
Yeah, I found it too. And it just keeps going . . . . . . I find this to be ridiculously creepy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6524495.stm
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 04.04.2007, 10:56
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

No doubt schools will soon be provided with CCTV through special govenment funding "to improve discipline and order in schools and reduce the instances of vandalism"

dave


Quote:
View Post
Yeah, I found it too. And it just keeps going . . . . . . I find this to be ridiculously creepy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6524495.stm
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Living in Switzerland, working for UK Co. Naps Finance/banking/taxation 30 18.03.2019 15:04
UK National Identity Scheme Ginger Hale International affairs/politics 134 05.06.2007 04:19
Old style UK paper licences with no photo rmaunder Transportation/driving 7 25.04.2007 23:24
using savings accounts in the UK Grant Green Finance/banking/taxation 6 27.03.2007 12:46
UK tourist Visa required .. How much time mitucool Permits/visas/government 4 21.03.2007 12:09


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0