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  #61  
Old 04.04.2007, 12:58
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

There were talking cameras in Newcastle, UK, about 10 years ago. I remember parking my car and noticing that one of these things was watching me. As I was reversing into the space, a voice came out: "You've another foot or so there, mate". As there was no-one around on the street, I presumed it was Big Brother. Weird, scary, but I appreciated the assistance...
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  #62  
Old 04.04.2007, 15:03
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

hmmmmm......

and as long as you're a good little citizen then that is all they will use it for.

Going to work everyday, carrying your shiny new ID card (from 2009), not being angry about the latest oil war (Iraq... with Iran to follow?), not getting yourself arrested by participating in a peaceful protest (which is now illegal within a mile of Westminster)..... that kind of thing.

I'd imagine these camera's will prevent some crime, but its another step down a dangerous road, at a time when there's a lot wrong with our government.
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  #63  
Old 04.04.2007, 15:09
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

"Children will be recruited from schools to take part in the £0.5m scheme and shown round CCTV operating rooms on school trips.
Louise Casey, the government's "co-ordinator for respect" said in a statement this morning: "We are encouraging children to send this clear message to grown ups - act anti-socially and face the shame of being publicly embarrassed."

smack on the wrist with a wooden spoon ... so thats all right then .... & how long did it take a bloody Quango to come up with that job title ?
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  #64  
Old 04.04.2007, 15:11
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

I must be the only person not bothered by CCTV, probably because I feel so unsafe there although I must say, it doesn't seem to make England any safer. Infact more of my friends have been mugged in London since 2000, than ever before. Anyway London is a dump and smells of piss, I should know I lived in Central London for over 12 years, was only bothered by a mugger once and I won, although I got did get beaten up loads of times, once in broad daylight on Oxford Street, how embarrashing, I was with 2 Japaneese girls at the time. Oh well that's what you get for being a puff.
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  #65  
Old 03.05.2007, 14:07
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Dead but not forgotten,

The UK just won a Big Brother award for most heinous government. TB also got a mention as worst public offical.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-553112

Known oppresive regimes are ignored, mostly because it's so obvious.
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  #66  
Old 05.05.2007, 03:08
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Here's looking at you kid, never know who's reading the posts!
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  #67  
Old 05.05.2007, 16:10
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

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With all due respect, what exactly are the people who complain about erosion of civil liberties actually worried about?
Do you think some shady government official is avidly watching you go to the shops/ walking the dog/ taking your kids to school and compiling a secret dossier on you?

I'd be perfectly happy if everything I did in public was monitored, because this would mean that every time my family, my friends or myself was subject to a crime, it would be caught on camera.

I'm really not trying to start an argument, I just don't understand why this bothers people. If a bunch of drunkern idiots were beating you up down a side street, wouldn't you like to think that someone is watching and calling for police help..?
That was also the general feeling regarding Hitler during his early days as a politician. History will repeat itself, it always does because some individuals fail to learn from it. Just look at Iran, they fail to believe Hitler persecuted the Jews. With that said your arguement might be "there will never be another Hitler", or the government or masses won't allow another Hitler because we "leanred". That IMHO is niave and it's not meant to be an attack on you, but the general idea that history WON'T repeat itself. It does if you review history in detail.
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  #68  
Old 05.05.2007, 20:51
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Why we're worried? Well there's so much information against the new data collection and surveillance trends I won't even bother to go into any detail here.

1. The potential gravity of data abuse increases with the amount of data collected
2. The risk of "false positives" increases with the amount of data collected and databases merged
3. New technology costs loads of money
4. Some new methods do not improve security at all or even deteriorate it.
5abc. Some new methods are just implemented to mock security to the voters/politicians are overly confident in technology/lobbies want contracs
6. Some new methods aren't controlled by other instances
7. Some think that privacy is a right, too... a-hem
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  #69  
Old 31.05.2007, 18:45
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Legality of said cameras called into question



"The vast majority of Britain's CCTV cameras are operating illegally or in breach of privacy guidelines, a new watchdog has warned.


Defence lawyers could theoretically question the legality of CCTV pictures in court
Up to 90 per cent of surveillance cameras may be breaching the Information Commissioner's code of practice laid down to stop cameras being used inappropriately.

Even more seriously, a large proportion of the UK's 14.2 million cameras breach the Data Protection Act and so are illegal, the watchdog CameraWatch warned.

The illegality of many cameras will lead to future clashes in court and possible acquittals of suspects, predicted the organisation's chairman Gordon Ferrie."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ncamera131.xml
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  #70  
Old 04.06.2007, 23:01
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

In reply to the original two questions of this thread :
Why the UK is so heavily surveilled: Let me give you an example. I had a business in Battersea, London. In was an office in shop premises but not the type that carried cash. Four youths came in and one of them held a razor to the throat of our youngest employee who was 18. They demanded cash and were given all there was, which was less than CHF 200, and left. The effect on the young employee was terrible and he could not come back to work and found another job where he felt more secure. Result was that the staff asked me to install cameras on the entrance and inside the office.
As more businesses suffered similar raids they also put up cameras and so it escalated and then the Police also installed them on the streets.
It did help to reduce crime but it did so by pushing into areas where there were no camera. And so, even more cameras.
Not all the cameras are covering streets. Car parks, railways, industrial areas and, of course, the traffic flow on the Motorways (Autoroutes) etc can be far better monitored with cameras.
Doesn't it bother people, don't people feel like it's impinging upon their civil liberties? As far as Iím concerned the answer is No. OK, in an ideal world where there was little crime then take the cameras down, but itís not like that.
If Iím on the street itís not exactly a private place is it ? People can see me and even hear what Iím saying if theyíre nearby. Anyone with a camera can photograph me and thatís just about everyone with a mobile phone !
What would be interesting would be to ask people in high crime areas if they would like the cameras removed. I think I know what the answer would be !
Just two weeks ago I was in Battersea again and walked about two miles through the streets and I would rather have the cameras there than not.
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  #71  
Old 04.06.2007, 23:56
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

It's quite obvious I know, but I had not really considered CCTV in this Orwellian way before. I have always thought of CCTV as something that provides security and makes me feel safer as a lone female walking home late at night. It's also help my friend prove that she wasn't to blame when someone boshed her new car. I think, like many things in life, CCTV can be a good or a bad thing, depending upon how it's controlled and how it's interpreted. For me the balance swings towards the good...although I would start to worry if I went for a walk out in the countryside and saw one pointing at me!
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  #72  
Old 05.06.2007, 00:13
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

Its obviously distressing that such an attack happened and you should of course do everything you can to protect your staff and business.

However how far does one take this ? Do you not see the danger of random and unjustified blanket monitoring of people going about their everyday life ? Why should I suddenly be a suspect in a crime simply because I was walking down the street wearing a similar Burtons sweatshirt ? Why should I not have the freedom of movement , to fraternise without fear of accusation or reprisal ?
The gradual creep of surveillance and govenment control, not just cameras, in the UK is really frightening:

ID Cards
Fingerprinting school children
Non criminal DNA databases
CCTV
Big Brother talking Cameras
Civilian Traffic Wardens with Head cams
Mobile Phone Position Tracking
Intelligent car number plates
Motoway vehicle tracking
Improved colour high resolution road traffic cameras
"Pre-crime" behaviour prediction (yes really!)

That list was compiled in two minutes from recent TV reports. If one takes time to really compile an assessment, then I suspect (sic) the picture will be much bleaker for the civil rights and liberties in the UK.


Be careful what you wish for.

dave



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In reply to the original two questions of this thread :
Why the UK is so heavily surveilled: Let me give you an example. I had a business in Battersea, London. In was an office in shop premises but not the type that carried cash. Four youths came in and one of them held a razor to the throat of our youngest employee who was 18. They demanded cash and were given all there was, which was less than CHF 200, and left. The effect on the young employee was terrible and he could not come back to work and found another job where he felt more secure. Result was that the staff asked me to install cameras on the entrance and inside the office.
As more businesses suffered similar raids they also put up cameras and so it escalated and then the Police also installed them on the streets.
It did help to reduce crime but it did so by pushing into areas where there were no camera. And so, even more cameras.
Not all the cameras are covering streets. Car parks, railways, industrial areas and, of course, the traffic flow on the Motorways (Autoroutes) etc can be far better monitored with cameras.
Doesn't it bother people, don't people feel like it's impinging upon their civil liberties? As far as I’m concerned the answer is No. OK, in an ideal world where there was little crime then take the cameras down, but it’s not like that.
If I’m on the street it’s not exactly a private place is it ? People can see me and even hear what I’m saying if they’re nearby. Anyone with a camera can photograph me and that’s just about everyone with a mobile phone !
What would be interesting would be to ask people in high crime areas if they would like the cameras removed. I think I know what the answer would be !
Just two weeks ago I was in Battersea again and walked about two miles through the streets and I would rather have the cameras there than not.
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  #73  
Old 05.06.2007, 01:19
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

It all depends on who controls the cameras. You bought and control your cameras even though it sounds like a high crime area. Not all cameras are monitored. Is there a pattern for where the police cameras are placed. Does Whitehall have more than it's fair share. I think that cell phone cameras/videos are the worst. Some people take pictures of others in compromising situations. I wonder if behaviour will change because of it.
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  #74  
Old 05.06.2007, 06:03
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

I think the UK did an extraordinary job at the time of the bombings in London (by Swiss accounts, which is the news I listen to) in terms of working out what the hell happened, and getting the emergency services in quickly. Also, as far as I am aware (also Swiss news) several other bombing attempts have been prevented in the meantime. Wow. I wonder how much the CCTV has assisted with this? For me England is an enigma; a country which has no rubbish bins in public places (since decades) to prevent someone dropping a bomb in them clearly has some security issues.

I am glad I live here in Switzerland where there risks would appear to be, at least based on the behaviour of the governmental authorities protecting us, lower. It would appear that there is a reasonably high crime rate, or high risk of terrorism, or other risk that something will happen to you in the UK. It is my understanding that there was a huge drop in violent crime after the cameras were installed, and many crimes (rapes, burglaries etc) were solved.

High security and surveillance in itself does not concern me, but rather the fact that it would appear to be needed.
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  #75  
Old 05.06.2007, 06:24
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

And in Switzerland?

Several years ago our local police encouraged us to start a neighborhood watch to reduce the break-ins in our area. We take in turns to walk around after dark in pairs, and generally just have a presence. No risk. In that first Winter, there were 50 break-ins, and it turned out to be a local boy (!!) and his buddies. He was bored. The family has since had to move away in disgrace. We still have rubbish bins. We don't have cameras.

To install cameras or not to install????????

I agree that installing them here would be a tad unnecessary and I would be questioning the need (and be screaming about breach of liberties etc ...).
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  #76  
Old 05.06.2007, 07:37
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

If youths came into your shop again and did exactly the same, what would happen? Probably nothing even with cameras.

Recent UK newspaper articles:
Police ignored seven alarms and five CCTV shots of royal intruder
Police 'too busy' to watch CCTV film of burglaries
Majority of UK's CCTV cameras 'are illegal'
CCTV 'fails to cut crime or make people feel any safer'

On balance, I can also find articles showing the success of cameras, but usually just in really bad inner city estates.
Not where it counts to most people.

Quote:
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In reply to the original two questions of this thread :
Why the UK is so heavily surveilled: Let me give you an example. I had a business in Battersea, London. In was an office in shop premises but not the type that carried cash. Four youths came in and one of them held a razor to the throat of our youngest employee who was 18. They demanded cash and were given all there was, which was less than CHF 200, and left. The effect on the young employee was terrible and he could not come back to work and found another job where he felt more secure. Result was that the staff asked me to install cameras on the entrance and inside the office.
As more businesses suffered similar raids they also put up cameras and so it escalated and then the Police also installed them on the streets.
It did help to reduce crime but it did so by pushing into areas where there were no camera. And so, even more cameras.
Not all the cameras are covering streets. Car parks, railways, industrial areas and, of course, the traffic flow on the Motorways (Autoroutes) etc can be far better monitored with cameras.
Doesn't it bother people, don't people feel like it's impinging upon their civil liberties? As far as I’m concerned the answer is No. OK, in an ideal world where there was little crime then take the cameras down, but it’s not like that.
If I’m on the street it’s not exactly a private place is it ? People can see me and even hear what I’m saying if they’re nearby. Anyone with a camera can photograph me and that’s just about everyone with a mobile phone !
What would be interesting would be to ask people in high crime areas if they would like the cameras removed. I think I know what the answer would be !
Just two weeks ago I was in Battersea again and walked about two miles through the streets and I would rather have the cameras there than not.
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  #77  
Old 05.06.2007, 11:30
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

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SNIP!
Non criminal DNA databases
Just wondered what you meant here Dave, as a ex-employee of the Forensic Science Service, I was responsible for IT systems that controlled DNA Processing lines.

Form a orderly queue I'll answer your questions...
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  #78  
Old 05.06.2007, 11:36
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

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Just wondered what you meant here Dave, as a ex-employee of the Forensic Science Service, I was responsible for IT systems that controlled DNA Processing lines.

Form a orderly queue I'll answer your questions...
I think dave means the policy of keeping DNA catalogued, even if the suspect was later found to be innocent.
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Old 05.06.2007, 11:55
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

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I think dave means the policy of keeping DNA catalogued, even if the suspect was later found to be innocent.
As a percentage of 4m samples (note not people) on the NDNDDB I'd say this is a very low number.

An argument would be....

Say we arrest a young thief whos starting out on the criminal career path. He gets his DNA taken. CPS drop the charges due to lack of conclusive evidence, i.e. enough to convict.

If said person goes out to offend again the chances of them being caught is much higher than if the DNA was not taken. If the person decides crime is not for them then theres no problem.

There's a golden rule with DNA evidence in the UK. You cannot convict on DNA alone.
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Old 05.06.2007, 11:58
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Re: Can someone please explain to me why the UK is one of the most monitored societie

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As a percentage of 4m samples (note not people) on the NDNDDB I'd say this is a very low number.

An argument would be....

Say we arrest a young thief whos starting out on the criminal career path. He gets his DNA taken. CPS drop the charges due to lack of conclusive evidence, i.e. enough to convict.

If said person goes out to offend again the chances of them being caught is much higher than if the DNA was not taken. If the person decides crime is not for them then theres no problem.

There's a golden rule with DNA evidence in the UK. You cannot convict on DNA alone.
What do you make of this article?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/29/black_dna/
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