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  #121  
Old 13.08.2009, 17:52
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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hmmmm ok.

the point is, in other countries you can find a lump, feel a little unwell goto the dr and get diagnosed and treated. In the us (if your poor) you can find a lump, and say, well my family can eat this month or I can goto the dr, 6 months later your dead. so how do you want to compare the 2 countries, take every illness out there and compare survival rates?
Well, yes, that's called basing a premise on fact.

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statistics can be made to prove anything, mr moore used them to his advantage in "sick" which iirc proved france and england (and cuba) had better health care systems then the us, yet take a few cherry picked figures and they all look shocking.
Well if we can't look at statistics, I guess we'll have to rely on feelings then? OK, you feel Cuba has a better health care system than the US. Great. I've got no problems with your opinion. Just don't try to present it to me as fact, thats' all.

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I have no doubt the us has some of the best healthcare in the world, probably the best, if you can pay for it!!
We're in total agreement on this.

Morg
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  #122  
Old 13.08.2009, 17:55
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

America isnt making itself any friends on this topic. The level of support for the NHS brought down Twitter today..

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6794585.ece

"While the Government is wary of formally intervening the American debate, there is considerable anger about what are seen as a stream of inaccurate attacks by the Republicans to support their opposition to Mr Obama."
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  #123  
Old 13.08.2009, 17:55
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

American heros: the paid doctors earn $12 per hour. Listen to what the docotr says towards the end about cancer and the poor.

Embedding has been disabled, so you will haveto go to youtube to watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7HTVssPgFQ&feature=fvw

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  #124  
Old 13.08.2009, 17:55
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Do you mean these people?



Rather different figures than was shown to us by Morgannon. Different poll, different questions, markedly different result.

Ten Health Care Reform Myths
Evilshell, please cite your source for the graph. I see it's a CBS New / NYT Poll, but I can't find it online.

Thanks.

Morg
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  #125  
Old 13.08.2009, 17:57
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Evilshell, please cite your source for the graph. I see it's a CBS New / NYT Poll, but I can't find it online.

Thanks.

Morg
Errr page 2 on the link?
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  #126  
Old 13.08.2009, 18:08
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Errr page 2 on the link?
From that survey:

q49 Would you favor or oppose the government offering everyone a government administered health insurance plan -- something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get -- that would compete with private health insurance plans?

That's a really, really misleading statement. This health care reform bill is not at all like Medicare. It's a total overhaul of the system, not a supplemental plan like Medicare. "Something like..." wow, that's a statisticians sampling bias made flesh.

But that's just my opinion. Thank you for the source.

Morg


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  #127  
Old 13.08.2009, 18:25
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

Brown joins Twitter campaign to defend NHS against US attacks
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  #128  
Old 13.08.2009, 19:20
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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I'm not presenting an attitude. I'm merely stating that I don't agree with the NHS because I believe in taking care of myself, and not others. It's a simple statement of opinion.

Morg
Morg,
It is all fine until your current insurance throws you out. And then what? You will be using your savings?
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  #129  
Old 13.08.2009, 19:23
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Morg,
It is all fine until your current insurance throws you out. And then what? You will be using your savings?
I'll get new insurance. If I'm uninsurable I go back to work and start making money to pay for my health care.
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  #130  
Old 13.08.2009, 19:34
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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I'll get new insurance. If I'm uninsurable I go back to work and start making money to pay for my health care.
...and if your too sick to work?
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  #131  
Old 13.08.2009, 19:46
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

This is the very reason I hate the US political system, it is all about noise with very little signal.

We have a problem we need to fix but all I hear is a bunch of people screaming about how Obama wants to kill your grandma....every political argument is fought on the extremes. Your choices for a medical system are:

1) Obama will kill your grandma or
2) the poor will die on the streets

now make your choice.....and I can argue for 300 hours about the reasons 1) and 2) are true depending on my political beliefs.

Morgie vs. his detractors is fairly close to how political discussions are waged in this country. Makes me and alot of people just tune out from politics all together. I would rather spend my free time thinking about cycling or whatever, than hear this nonsense (not sure why I even read these threads to be honest, i was hoping for more reasoned debate perhaps....unlikely)

What passes for news channels over here is people making stupid arguments at each other for hours on end.
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  #132  
Old 13.08.2009, 20:23
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Totally irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Morg
some vociferous folks, including yourself, claim that health insurance reform would be ruinous to public finances. i was merely pointing out that 1. these small-minded people are selective about which costs they object to and 2. that its strange that people object to social welfare but not to destroying a large country which did nothing to harm us.
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  #133  
Old 13.08.2009, 20:29
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

I wonder what the US economy loses due to people being off sick due to their inability to afford health insurance?
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  #134  
Old 13.08.2009, 21:00
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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I wonder what the US economy loses due to people being off sick due to their inability to afford health insurance?
Agreed and it also discourages young entrepreneurs to quit their current job and try something new and creative. I know some bright people who stay employed in a large firm just for health benefits.
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  #135  
Old 13.08.2009, 21:32
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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...and if your too sick to work?
Then I'll go to the ER for emergency care. If it's a long term sickness then I will have to rely on family. Not government.
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  #136  
Old 13.08.2009, 21:38
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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This is the very reason I hate the US political system, it is all about noise with very little signal.

We have a problem we need to fix but all I hear is a bunch of people screaming about how Obama wants to kill your grandma....every political argument is fought on the extremes. Your choices for a medical system are:

1) Obama will kill your grandma or
2) the poor will die on the streets

now make your choice.....and I can argue for 300 hours about the reasons 1) and 2) are true depending on my political beliefs.

Morgie vs. his detractors is fairly close to how political discussions are waged in this country. Makes me and alot of people just tune out from politics all together. I would rather spend my free time thinking about cycling or whatever, than hear this nonsense (not sure why I even read these threads to be honest, i was hoping for more reasoned debate perhaps....unlikely)

What passes for news channels over here is people making stupid arguments at each other for hours on end.
I wouldn't say stupid is the word I'd used. Passionate yes, misinformed maybe.

The reason you're seeing a lot of "noise" is because people are very very angry over this on both sides. Me, my detractors, etc. Both sides have a right to be fired up over this, and should be.

Too many people think "reasoned debate" automatically means "compromise". This issue is far too important for me at least to compromise on.

Morg
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  #137  
Old 13.08.2009, 21:38
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Then I'll go to the ER for emergency care. If it's a long term sickness then I will have to rely on family. Not government.
and if family can't afford to pay?
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  #138  
Old 13.08.2009, 21:40
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Then I'll go to the ER for emergency care. If it's a long term sickness then I will have to rely on family. Not government.
So you'd sponge off your family, possibly rendering them financially and emotionally bankrupt because you don't think the government should fund health care?

How would you pay bills that would end up in the hundreds of thousands (realistically) if you were seriously ill and needed hospitalization? Would you go bankrupt? Isn't that another breach of moral code, as everyone ends up paying for your bills that you can't pay?
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  #139  
Old 13.08.2009, 21:42
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

One of the fastest growing group of uninsured are the youth.

From my own experience, some like my son will work till they drop, they seem to think that they are young and invincible. I had to drag him to doctor to find out that he had pneumonia, it was at a time when they were laying people off on Wall Street, so he refused to take the time off.

Many will get into a downward spiral of overworking for fear of job loss, getting sick, losing work, losing insurance then getting sicker. This leads to a more divided society, with many rich not mixing with the poor, as if poverty were contagious. For many it is divisively advantageous, e.g. the fewer applying to university the better their chance of getting in. Already students are having to pay for internships. What a waste of the next generation! It is survival of the financially fittest, where many are handicapped at the outset.
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  #140  
Old 13.08.2009, 21:45
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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So you'd sponge off your family, possibly rendering them financially and emotionally bankrupt because you don't think the government should fund health care?

How would you pay bills that would end up in the hundreds of thousands (realistically) if you were seriously ill and needed hospitalization? Would you go bankrupt? Isn't that another breach of moral code, as everyone ends up paying for your bills that you can't pay?

I know some of the uppercrust that just max out their credit cards then flee.
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