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  #161  
Old 14.08.2009, 00:04
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

I owe my life to the NHS. Well after they f****d up cos they took out my appendix first. At least I'll never die of appendicitis.
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  #162  
Old 14.08.2009, 00:41
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So you'd sponge off your family, possibly rendering them financially and emotionally bankrupt because you don't think the government should fund health care?

How would you pay bills that would end up in the hundreds of thousands (realistically) if you were seriously ill and needed hospitalization? Would you go bankrupt? Isn't that another breach of moral code, as everyone ends up paying for your bills that you can't pay?
Well let's see - I could "sponge" off my family, who has a vested interest in my survival, or I could "sponge" off of society with socialized health care. Which is more fair - the people who love and know me helping me through my crisis, or all those people who are just trying to make ends meet?

And no, I would never declare bankruptcy. I'd sell our house, our cars, whatever I needed to sell to pay the bills. I'm decidedly old-fashioned that way.

Morg
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Old 14.08.2009, 00:47
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

I don't know much about the health service in the States. I do know that my family there stick to their jobs because the health benefits are good.

Which sort of makes me think about the cotton mills. Work and be healthy or lose your house. I find it a bit archaic.
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  #164  
Old 14.08.2009, 00:51
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Well let's see - I could "sponge" off my family, who has a vested interest in my survival, or I could "sponge" off of society with socialized health care. Which is more fair - the people who love and know me helping me through my crisis, or all those people who are just trying to make ends meet?

And no, I would never declare bankruptcy. I'd sell our house, our cars, whatever I needed to sell to pay the bills. I'm decidedly old-fashioned that way.

Morg
My mother died in 1994. She was in the hospital for five months, including some time at a very famous local teaching hospital. Even with excellent insurance, the costs were high. Without insurance, it would have been well over a million dollars. Just one bill for a two or so week period was over $700,000. And that was 15 years ago. What would the costs be now?

Face it, Morg. Most people (most likely yourself included) just don't have that kind of money.
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  #165  
Old 14.08.2009, 01:16
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My mother died in 1994. She was in the hospital for five months, including some time at a very famous local teaching hospital. Even with excellent insurance, the costs were high. Without insurance, it would have been well over a million dollars. Just one bill for a two or so week period was over $700,000. And that was 15 years ago. What would the costs be now?

Face it, Morg. Most people (most likely yourself included) just don't have that kind of money.
Evilshell, I'm sorry for your loss. My mother too died in 1994, of breast cancer and leukemia. I can completely understand how you feel.

No, most people don't have that kind of money, and that's why we have private health insurance programs. We also have Medicare and Medicaid for the elderly and for the poor. We have the social programs in place to help the needy already.

Morg
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  #166  
Old 14.08.2009, 01:26
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No, most people don't have that kind of money, and that's why we have private health insurance programs. We also have Medicare and Medicaid for the elderly and for the poor. We have the social programs in place to help the needy already.

Morg

Medicare / Medicaid suck hardcore and the majority of the people in the US who earn less than $40k per year lack health insurance.

There is a huge gap between the type of salary and benefits one can expect at work and how little one needs to make in order to qualify for assistance programs such as Medicaid.

The term "working poor" is often applied in the US for a reason yanno.
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  #167  
Old 14.08.2009, 01:28
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Evilshell, I'm sorry for your loss. My mother too died in 1994, of breast cancer and leukemia. I can completely understand how you feel.

No, most people don't have that kind of money, and that's why we have private health insurance programs. We also have Medicare and Medicaid for the elderly and for the poor. We have the social programs in place to help the needy already.

Morg
Thank you, Morg. And my condolences for the loss of your mother as well.

Had my father lost his job for all the time he had to take off to be with her (she had a very rare illness and there were many times I was called back from NYC and he was at her side every day), he never, ever could have dreamed to pay off the medical bills. Even if he sold their house, cars and everything in them.

My mother was far from elderly, at 56 Medicare wouldn't have paid a penny for her.

They would have been bankrupt. That's the real world in America.
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  #168  
Old 14.08.2009, 01:38
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Thank you, Morg. And my condolences for the loss of your mother as well.

Had my father lost his job for all the time he had to take off to be with her (she had a very rare illness and there were many times I was called back from NYC and he was at her side every day), he never, ever could have dreamed to pay off the medical bills. Even if he sold their house, cars and everything in them.

My mother was far from elderly, at 56 Medicare wouldn't have paid a penny for her.

They would have been bankrupt. That's the real world in America.
Yeah my mom was 54, same situation. Did she have a rare cancer? These cases sound very similar...my mother had very aggressive breast cancer that turned into leukemia from the chemo treatment.

And I can see your point now - you're worried about not having a safety cushion (not a derogatory term) in case your health insurance drops you or your parents.

How about this - what if the Fed mandated that no health insurance company can drop someone's coverage once they've been accepted as a customer, and what if the pre-existing condition rationale was removed. This would basically socialize / subsidize health care costs as premiums would go up for everyone, but that coverage would never be in doubt.

Or, and this is an idea I'm not sure has even been considered, run a program where the Fed guarantees health insurance policies, so if you are ever dropped from coverage, you could get on the Fed program, but you'd have to prove you have been dropped from coverage, couldn't get coverage after a "reasonable search", and had certain income limitations? Basically an expansion of Medicaid?

I could sign on to either of these.

Morg
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Old 14.08.2009, 01:39
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Medicare / Medicaid suck hardcore ...
And you think a national health care plan by the government would be any better?

Morg
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  #170  
Old 14.08.2009, 01:40
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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And you think a national health care plan by the government would be any better?

Morg
Possibly not. Maybe more people would get a share of it though!
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Old 14.08.2009, 01:48
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And you think a national health care plan by the government would be any better?

Morg

Perhaps, perhaps not but as Oldhand points out, more people will HAVE insurance with national health care. That's a huge factor right there.

Will it be perfect right off? I'm sure it won't.

HOWEVER

It needs to start somewhere and some how. The headline I saw the other day (the whole garbage makes me too sick to bother reading most of the time) said something about the biggest detractors of some sort of national health care are folks who HAVE INSURANCE ALREADY!

It's so great to deny things that could benefit others while not needing those things yourself, innit?
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  #172  
Old 14.08.2009, 02:05
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Possibly not. Maybe more people would get a share of it though!
I'd much prefer owning an expensive but valuable item than a thing that has little value.

Morg
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Old 14.08.2009, 02:10
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Perhaps, perhaps not but as Oldhand points out, more people will HAVE insurance with national health care. That's a huge factor right there.

Will it be perfect right off? I'm sure it won't.

HOWEVER

It needs to start somewhere and some how. The headline I saw the other day (the whole garbage makes me too sick to bother reading most of the time) said something about the biggest detractors of some sort of national health care are folks who HAVE INSURANCE ALREADY!

It's so great to deny things that could benefit others while not needing those things yourself, innit?
Then we have a couple of options to start somewhere without wrecking the whole damn system:

1.) Remove any pre-existing coverage power from health insurance companies. Allow the insurance companies to adjust premiums higher due to them having to bear higher risk.

2.) Allow not-for-profit coops to form with a one-time infusion of government capital at start up. Let them compete with the insurance companies.

3.) Mandate that insurance companies can never drop coverage once you're insured except for non-payment of premiums.

Let's start here, and then if that doesn't work, consider the public option down the road. No need to go public if we don't need it.

And no, it's not "great" to deny things to others. I don't deny anyone in this country anything - as long as I don't have to pay for it. Is it any better to deny me the right to choose my insurance? No.

Morg
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  #174  
Old 14.08.2009, 02:26
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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Yeah my mom was 54, same situation. Did she have a rare cancer? These cases sound very similar...my mother had very aggressive breast cancer that turned into leukemia from the chemo treatment.
No, an autoimmune disorder they couldn't pinpoint.

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And I can see your point now - you're worried about not having a safety cushion (not a derogatory term) in case your health insurance drops you or your parents.
I am not worried about me losing my American health insurance My dad's now old enough for medicare.

I do worry about my friends who can't afford health insurance, but have serious illnesses. Or are underinsured with serious illnesses. Who have had to declare bankruptcy in their 20s because of over 70k in medical debt.

Another friend's husband died because he put off getting a lump in his throat checked out because they didn't have the money and had no insurance. He died of a curable/treatable cancer.

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How about this - what if the Fed mandated that no health insurance company can drop someone's coverage once they've been accepted as a customer, and what if the pre-existing condition rationale was removed. This would basically socialize / subsidize health care costs as premiums would go up for everyone, but that coverage would never be in doubt.

Or, and this is an idea I'm not sure has even been considered, run a program where the Fed guarantees health insurance policies, so if you are ever dropped from coverage, you could get on the Fed program, but you'd have to prove you have been dropped from coverage, couldn't get coverage after a "reasonable search", and had certain income limitations? Basically an expansion of Medicaid?

I could sign on to either of these.
I think that your second suggestion is what's the basic jist of the program that's being offered.

Good to see that maybe a compromise can be found amoungst us.
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Old 14.08.2009, 02:36
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No, an autoimmune disorder they couldn't pinpoint.
My mother in law has rheumatoid arthritis. It usually burns out after a while, but she's in horrible pain. She's terrified of the public option after Obama's comment about the 100 year old grandmother taking the pain pill, because her pain pills are very expensive and they are the only thing that quells her pain.

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I am not worried about me losing my American health insurance My dad's now old enough for medicare.

I do worry about my friends who can't afford health insurance, but have serious illnesses. Or are underinsured with serious illnesses. Who have had to declare bankruptcy in their 20s because of over 70k in medical debt.

Another friend's husband died because he put off getting a lump in his throat checked out because they didn't have the money and had no insurance. He died of a curable/treatable cancer.
That's understandable about your friends. At least they were able to declare bankruptcy and discharge the debt.

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I think that your second suggestion is what's the basic jist of the program that's being offered.
The current house bill would allow anyone regardless of income level to join. My proposal would severly limit any public plan to defined income levels and/or conditions. That way the poor could have the insurance they need and the better off could pay for their private health insurance coverage. I also don't see why expanding the Medicaid rolls wouldn't do the same thing as this public option wants. Just increase the income limits for enrolling in the program.

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Good to see that maybe a compromise can be found amoungst us.
I sometimes come across as unyileding, but after hearing your story I finally saw it from your point of view. Thus, I can compromise a little bit.

I only ask you to look at it from my point of view - My wife and I pay 50% of her income out in the form of taxes. We don't have tax shelters. She has worked her butt off to get to the point where she can make a good living. And now, Obama wants to tax us, as higher income earners, even more for this public health plan.

Imagine if you're making $70k a year, and suddently you're making $35K after taxes. Then the government says to you, "you need to pony up an additional 5% to pay for this health care plan that you will probably never use." I think you'd be madder than hell too, wouldn't you?

Morg
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Old 14.08.2009, 03:06
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I owe my life to the NHS. Well after they f****d up cos they took out my appendix first. At least I'll never die of appendicitis.
Well I just got the letter today for the hospital and another form a lawyer.

Basically I was diagnosed with ovarian cysts when the real problem was a perforated, gangrenous appendix with old adhesions.

I had never had any abdominal surgery before so the adhesions were from the appendix healing itself. I was in a lot of pain. The gynae told me to take Ibuprofen. I requested a catscan, she refused three times ( in my notes) even though the insurance said they would OK it if the doctor recommended it.
She repeated the ultrasound, but on the day of the ultrasaound didn't know whether to ultrasound the bladder or the ovaries. She had ignored tests picked up by my family doctor indicating a serious E Coli infection.
Which took 3 series of heavy antibiotics to shift.

In the end my husband got fed up of my moaning, so being Friday 13th, I drove myself to the hospital. They did a catscan opened up theatre and removed the appendix. The ovarain cysts, are minute, so they weren't the problem. Six hours after laproscopic surgery I went home went shopping and fora two mile walk- completeley cured, no problems since.

The verdict in the letters (they came together today) is that I have no recourse to sue, because I refused to see a male gynaecogist who would have diagnosed it correctly and because I did not go back after the ultrasound scan which I was told was normal.

The reason I did not go back was because the PA complained that she would be coming back from vacation on my appointment day, would be hung over and not fit to see me.
Also since the ultrasound scan was unremarkable, I thought that the pain was what other women noramlly put up with, which is what the gynae told me. I didnlt want ot bither them anymore with my whining, so I never went back.
So I guess that chapter is closed!
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Old 14.08.2009, 03:10
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Re: Americans put the boot into the NHS

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My mother in law has rheumatoid arthritis. It usually burns out after a while, but she's in horrible pain. She's terrified of the public option after Obama's comment about the 100 year old grandmother taking the pain pill, because her pain pills are very expensive and they are the only thing that quells her pain.



That's understandable about your friends. At least they were able to declare bankruptcy and discharge the debt.



The current house bill would allow anyone regardless of income level to join. My proposal would severly limit any public plan to defined income levels and/or conditions. That way the poor could have the insurance they need and the better off could pay for their private health insurance coverage. I also don't see why expanding the Medicaid rolls wouldn't do the same thing as this public option wants. Just increase the income limits for enrolling in the program.



I sometimes come across as unyileding, but after hearing your story I finally saw it from your point of view. Thus, I can compromise a little bit.

I only ask you to look at it from my point of view - My wife and I pay 50% of her income out in the form of taxes. We don't have tax shelters. She has worked her butt off to get to the point where she can make a good living. And now, Obama wants to tax us, as higher income earners, even more for this public health plan.

Imagine if you're making $70k a year, and suddently you're making $35K after taxes. Then the government says to you, "you need to pony up an additional 5% to pay for this health care plan that you will probably never use." I think you'd be madder than hell too, wouldn't you?

Morg
50%, I have a good tax accountant that you should see, no one pays 50%, I make more than that and I pay nowhere near 50%, even being in tax happy land out East here.

Other than that, I see your point.
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Old 14.08.2009, 03:30
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50%, I have a good tax accountant that you should see, no one pays 50%, I make more than that and I pay nowhere near 50%, even being in tax happy land out East here.

Other than that, I see your point.
If you do have such an accountant, I'd love to talk to them.

But I'm not exaggerating. My wife pays 50%. She is considered self-employed so she has to pay her social security tax and medicare tax herself - that's something a lot of people don't realize.

Here's the tax breakdown:

35.0% to federal effective
4.0% to state
1.0% to county
1.0% to city
2.0% to property taxes
2.0% to social security tax effective*
3.0% to medicare

So about 48%, very close to 50%.

*http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/...ated=956064531

The 2009 contribution rate, also known as the FICA tax rate, is 7.65% for employees and 15.30% for self-employed people. The rates are broken out as follows:
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Old 14.08.2009, 03:35
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If you do have such an accountant, I'd love to talk to them.

But I'm not exaggerating. My wife pays 50%. She is considered self-employed so she has to pay her social security tax and medicare tax herself - that's something a lot of people don't realize.

Here's the tax breakdown:

35.0% to federal effective
4.0% to state
1.0% to county
1.0% to city
2.0% to property taxes
2.0% to social security tax effective*
3.0% to medicare

So about 48%, very close to 50%.

*http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/...ated=956064531

The 2009 contribution rate, also known as the FICA tax rate, is 7.65% for employees and 15.30% for self-employed people. The rates are broken out as follows:

the 35% federal is not the effective rate...that is the marginal rate, and if you are taking deductions at all it is much lower. As self-employed, am sure you were wife can deduct quite alot. Anyhow, let us not squablle over these boring details.
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Old 14.08.2009, 03:40
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Well I just got the letter today for the hospital and another form a lawyer.

Basically I was diagnosed with ovarian cysts when the real problem was a perforated, gangrenous appendix with old adhesions.

I had never had any abdominal surgery before so the adhesions were from the appendix healing itself. I was in a lot of pain. The gynae told me to take Ibuprofen. I requested a catscan, she refused three times ( in my notes) even though the insurance said they would OK it if the doctor recommended it.
She repeated the ultrasound, but on the day of the ultrasaound didn't know whether to ultrasound the bladder or the ovaries. She had ignored tests picked up by my family doctor indicating a serious E Coli infection.
Which took 3 series of heavy antibiotics to shift.

In the end my husband got fed up of my moaning, so being Friday 13th, I drove myself to the hospital. They did a catscan opened up theatre and removed the appendix. The ovarain cysts, are minute, so they weren't the problem. Six hours after laproscopic surgery I went home went shopping and fora two mile walk- completeley cured, no problems since.

The verdict in the letters (they came together today) is that I have no recourse to sue, because I refused to see a male gynaecogist who would have diagnosed it correctly and because I did not go back after the ultrasound scan which I was told was normal.

The reason I did not go back was because the PA complained that she would be coming back from vacation on my appointment day, would be hung over and not fit to see me.
Also since the ultrasound scan was unremarkable, I thought that the pain was what other women noramlly put up with, which is what the gynae told me. I didnlt want ot bither them anymore with my whining, so I never went back.
So I guess that chapter is closed!
Hoppy, you made a series of very bad decisions. I'm sorry, but you should have stayed on top of your health issues. It was your decision to not follow up on your symptoms.

And I can understand women being hesitant to have a male gyne, but it wasn't at all necessary to have the same PA perform the test. You could have requested the gyne's partner perhaps? Or perhaps change your appointment day?

Did you family physician talk to your gyne about the E Coli infection? Such things don't just arise out of thin air, and there is almost always some sort of underlying cause for such an infection. What did your FP do to diagnose the underlying condition? If your FP had told your gyne to do a cat scan, I'm sure the gyne would have done it - especially, if as you are continually pointing out, the test is expensive and would deliver profit to the gyne if she had done it.

You do see the irony there I hope?

There is no also way of knowing that a male gyne would have made a different diagnosis than the female gyne.

Morg
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