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Old 21.08.2009, 20:17
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

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I don't need to - he was convicted by a panel of Scottish judges in 2001. Or are you implying that he was wrongly convicted?



You presume incorrectly. I mean the enemy without.

From your post you seem to be disagreeing with the Scottish judiciary decision while agreeing with the Scottish executive decision. Both decisions were based on the Scottish legal system and legal tradition. How can you back one and not the other - seems a bit inconsistent.
Inconsistencies are life in a nutshell.
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Old 22.08.2009, 09:23
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

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I don't need to - he was convicted by a panel of Scottish judges in 2001. Or are you implying that he was wrongly convicted?



You presume incorrectly. I mean the enemy without.

From your post you seem to be disagreeing with the Scottish judiciary decision while agreeing with the Scottish executive decision. Both decisions were based on the Scottish legal system and legal tradition. How can you back one and not the other - seems a bit inconsistent.
Well, I along with most people don't have much of a clue beyond what is fed to us, but I've kept my eye on this story for years and have strong doubts. That is neither here not there; what is interesting is the sht storm in the US over this which I believe is a massive smoke screen to destract people from asking "Why the appeal, supported by so many but our Governments?" There's a very fishy smell to all of it.

Obama's anger seemed genuine when asked to comment. MacKaskill (the Scottish Politician) took a very measured stance. Again, something's not the full shilling, here. I'd be more inclined to tackle the enemy within first, rather than fearing the enemy without. We know all about them...

Inconsistency we must live with: I applaud the decision to send a dying man home. Especially *if* he's innocent, as the subtext seems to imply.

Do follow the link to Private Eye above. Despite its tone, it's Britain's only independent newspaper / satirical magazine. They've been covering this story since the crash. You may find it interesting
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Old 23.08.2009, 07:05
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

The war of words continues, this time from the Director of the FBI in what can only be described as an unbelievable attack on Scottish sovereignty.

Letter from FBI's Robert S. Mueller

This is the content of a letter from FBI Director Robert S. Mueller, III, sent to Scottish Minister Kenny MacAskill regarding the release of Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi.


Dear Mr. Secretary:
Over the years I have been a prosecutor, and recently as the Director of the FBI, I have made it a practice not to comment on the actions of other prosecutors, since only the prosecutor handling the case has all the facts and the law before him in reaching the appropriate decision.
Your decision to release Megrahi causes me to abandon that practice in this case. I do so because I am familiar with the facts, and the law, having been the Assistant Attorney General in charge of the investigation and indictment of Megrahi in 1991.

And I do so because I am outraged at your decision, blithely defended on the grounds of "compassion."
Your action in releasing Megrahi is as inexplicable as it is detrimental to the cause of justice. Indeed your action makes a mockery of the rule of law.
Your action gives comfort to terrorists around the world who now believe that regardless of the quality of the investigation, the conviction by jury after the defendant is given all due process, and sentence appropriate to the crime, the terrorist will be freed by one man's exercise of "compassion."
Your action rewards a terrorist even though he never admitted to his role in this act of mass murder and even though neither he nor the government of Libya ever disclosed the names and roles of others who were responsible.
Your action makes a mockery of the emotions, passions and pathos of all those affected by the Lockerbie tragedy: the medical personnel who first faced the horror of 270 bodies strewn in the fields around Lockerbie, and in the town of Lockerbie itself; the hundreds of volunteers who walked the fields of Lockerbie to retrieve any piece of debris related to the breakup of the plane; the hundreds of FBI agents and Scottish police who undertook an unprecedented global investigation to identify those responsible; the prosecutors who worked for years - in some cases a full career - to see justice done.

But most importantly, your action makes a mockery of the grief of the families who lost their own on December 21, 1988.
You could not have spent much time with the families, certainly not as much time as others involved in the investigation and prosecution.
You could not have visited the small wooden warehouse where the personal items of those who perished were gathered for identification - the single sneaker belonging to a teenager; the Syracuse sweatshirt never again to be worn by a college student returning home for the holidays; the toys in a suitcase of a businessman looking forward to spending Christmas with his wife and children.
You apparently made this decision without regard to the views of your partners in the investigation and prosecution of those responsible for the Lockerbie tragedy.
Although the FBI and Scottish police, and prosecutors in both countries, worked exceptionally closely to hold those responsible accountable, you never once sought our opinion, preferring to keep your own counsel and hiding behind opaque references to "the need for compassion."
You have given the family members of those who died continued grief and frustration. You have given those who sought to assure that the persons responsible would be held accountable the back of your hand.

You have given Megrahi a "jubilant welcome" in Tripoli, according to the reporting. Where, I ask, is the justice?

Sincerely yours,
Robert S. Mueller, III
Director

Source
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  #24  
Old 23.08.2009, 07:24
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

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The war of words continues, this time from the Director of the FBI in what can only be described as an unbelievable attack on Scottish sovereignty.
I'd describe it as horrified outrage from a man who believes that there was a terrible miscarriage of justice done.
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  #25  
Old 23.08.2009, 14:59
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

Bob Mueller writes a good letter, for public consumption.

See "How Government works the Media 101" for case studies.

The dying Al-Magrahi claims he is innocent. Regardless of truths and untruths in all of this, he wanted to stay in prison to clear his name. Hardly the response of someone cocking a snoop at the West.

Consider yourself in this situation: you have a chance to clear your name through appeal - and it looked very uncertain that it was an open & shut case - or accept the shame of being the notorious Villain, and see your Mother again before dying.

I don't know what choice I'd make in Al-Magrahi's shoes, but the Scottish minister made the choice for him.

To what extent the minister's hand was forced will, I hope, all come out in the wash one day. I feel there's a lot to be won on all sides that he's returned home and there'll be no further investigation of evidence.

"Roll out the Barrel, 1.8 Billion Barrels a day..."



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Old 23.08.2009, 15:47
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

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I don't need to - he was convicted by a panel of Scottish judges in 2001. Or are you implying that he was wrongly convicted?
That's the point. While certain individuals are frothing at the mouth about a mass-murdered being released, this nicely drowns out those who think that:

a) He didn't do it
b) The governments involved know he didn't do it
c) He took the rap or was fitted up.
d) The real murderer has gone free.
e) The truth would be profoundly embarrassing, politically.

He's being released to stop his appeal continuing, because he'd probably win, and all sorts of inconvenient information would be laid bare.

Maybe the real murderers are related to someone senior in the Libyan government.
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  #27  
Old 24.08.2009, 00:34
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Party time for a murderer...

Rightly or wrongly released, rightly or wrongly convicted (surely he didn't act alone and without orders from above?), I could only feel disgust at the welcome he was given on his return to Tripoli.

It bought back the same "choke back the vomit" feeling I had when this man returned home in triumph having been released for murdering an Air Traffic Controller in cold-blood in Kloten:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaly_Kaloyev
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  #28  
Old 24.08.2009, 02:04
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

In civilized society, we don't go out and extract our own revenge on perpetrators of crimes. We defer to a criminal justice system. We put our faith in such an institution to carry out justice on our behalf. But what message does this release send to victims of future crimes? Can they positively be sure the system will mete out justice? I think some will ask who will mete out justice on their behalf. Some may decide to do it on their own instead.

For me, the most annoying part of all this is that one person in Scotland is able to make such a decision without consideration for the victims, and without understanding the fullness of the message he is sending out. The message that this sends out is that victims need not rely on the system for justice, because the system is corrupt and its principles are negotiable.

I think this release is a blow to society, morality and justice.
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  #29  
Old 24.08.2009, 07:53
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Re: Party time for a murderer...

Actually, having read it, it seems he was suffering some depression after he lost his wife and kids in a plane crash. He did not plan to go kill the guy........ It's a bit sad, and not a great comparison really.
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Rightly or wrongly released, rightly or wrongly convicted (surely he didn't act alone and without orders from above?), I could only feel disgust at the welcome he was given on his return to Tripoli.

It bought back the same "choke back the vomit" feeling I had when this man returned home in triumph having been released for murdering an Air Traffic Controller in cold-blood in Kloten:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitaly_Kaloyev
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  #30  
Old 30.08.2009, 04:25
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

There it is, the integrity of British Sovereignty and Justice in exchange for oil:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6814939.ece

Was the price right?
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  #31  
Old 30.08.2009, 13:16
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

Where do you see any "attack on Scottish sovereignty" in Mueller's letter? He does not demand anything...in fact, he does not even ask for anything to be done. He does say that he is "outraged at your decision" with regards to Al-Magrahi's release.

All I see in this letter is an emotional response from someone who was involved in the case and a legal professional. It could have been written by an American/Scottish/British even a Libyan who was angered by MacAskill's decision.

Whether MacAskill was adhering to Scottish law was not really the issue for Mueller. And in the end, I doubt it was the issue for MacAskill either...

fduvall

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The war of words continues, this time from the Director of the FBI in what can only be described as an unbelievable attack on Scottish sovereignty.

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  #32  
Old 01.09.2009, 11:35
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

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Any notion of justice vanished the day Libya was allowed to pay blood money to the victim's families. Gaddafy's son actually mocked certain family members for demanding too much money, which makes the whole affair look even grubbier.

In my humble opinion, the only compensation the families should have received was that of the insurance/airline company, because you now have a situation where the Libyan government believes that it has bought itself absolution.
So what justice was there to be done? You either invade Libya and kill Khadaffi or you take the money. It's better then getting nothing.
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  #33  
Old 02.09.2009, 02:18
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

I would have like there to be more investigation at the time, to prove that Megrahi really was responsible

I am concerned that if Megrahi was not guilty, who is Gaddafi protecting?

Have any EFers read stuff that contradicts this?:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...n-1206086.html
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  #34  
Old 03.09.2009, 06:05
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

Curiouser and curiouser I guess

Quote:
Speaking from his bed at his home in Tripoli, al-Megrahi said he backed calls led by Dr Jim Swire, whose 23-year-old daughter died in the crash, for a fresh inquiry
He said: “I would want to help Dr Swire and the others with the documents I hold.
“In my view, it is unfair to the victim’s families that this has not been heard. It would help them to know the truth. The truth never dies. If the UK guaranteed it, I would be very supportive.”
“My feeling is that the UK government will avoid a public inquiry because it would be a headache for them and the Americans and it would show how much the Americans have been involved and it would also cost them a lot of money which they may not want to spend because of the recession.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6814735.ece

Maybe it is time for bed before I totally flip into conspiracy theories but....

I wonder, if Robin Cook were alive, what he would think of this?
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Old 03.09.2009, 08:23
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

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In civilized society, we don't go out and extract our own revenge on perpetrators of crimes. We defer to a criminal justice system. We put our faith in such an institution to carry out justice on our behalf. But what message does this release send to victims of future crimes? Can they positively be sure the system will mete out justice? I think some will ask who will mete out justice on their behalf. Some may decide to do it on their own instead.

For me, the most annoying part of all this is that one person in Scotland is able to make such a decision without consideration for the victims, and without understanding the fullness of the message he is sending out. The message that this sends out is that victims need not rely on the system for justice, because the system is corrupt and its principles are negotiable.

I think this release is a blow to society, morality and justice.
But it makes me laugh that the media say it is sending out a message to terrorists that there is a free ticket out of jail for terrorists thanks to this.

Yes, there is but the only condition is that you have to be suffering from terminal cancer with about 3 agonising months to live. Some trade off for the terrorist, don't you think?
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  #36  
Old 03.09.2009, 22:35
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

Quote:
Justice for Megrahi" In December 2008, Dr. Swire became a founder member of the Justice for Megrahi Campaign [11] which sought interim release from jail for Megrahi, who had been diagnosed with metastasized prostatic cancer and is terminally ill, so that he can return to his family in Libya pending his second appeal against conviction.[12]
Wikipedia

Swire is not a stupid man there has to be more to this story. I hope that the truth is not buried with Megrahi. Who was responsible? Is Megrahi just ridden with guilt and blowing a smokescreen?
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  #37  
Old 03.09.2009, 22:54
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

Swire's website.

http://www.lockerbietruth.com/

Here's video which I suppose could be true, but it is from Al jazeera dn basically the Arab- Iranian relationship has always been tenuous at best.

So other pan Arab motivators may be at work.

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/E7DA8D...-E050BDB2D248/
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  #38  
Old 06.01.2010, 19:57
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Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released

OH how the truth always comes out.

BBC2's flagship current affairs and news show Newsnight tonight has a lead story on this theme. More info from the Beebs site here: "'Flaws' in key Lockerbie evidence"
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Old 08.02.2011, 04:55
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Lockerbie Bomber Released -

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I wonder what deal was made.[/URL]
A little more light shed today...

UK ministers 'wanted Lockerbie bomber released'
' in 2008, the (UK) government developed a policy that it "should do all it could, whilst respecting devolved competences, to facilitate an appeal by the Libyans to the Scottish government for Mr Megrahi's transfer under the PTA (prisoner transfer agreement) or release on compassionate grounds".

"This action amounted to: Proceeding with ratification of the PTA; explaining to Libya in factual terms the process for application for transfer under a PTA or for compassionate release, and informing the Scottish government that there was no legal barrier to transfer under the PTA," the report said."

'...the information showed UK ministers had changed their position on the transfer of Libyan prisoners due to commercial considerations, including lobbying by oil firm BP.'
The Scottish government has published a series of documents relating to the case. Messrs. Brown and Straw are not looking good from the contents...
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  #40  
Old 20.05.2012, 17:05
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Lockerbie Bomber has now died

How long was that after he was freed?
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