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Old 15.12.2009, 00:13
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

According Parsi - Iran was happy to have israel as any ally as long as it helped to achieve Iranian goals, but as soon as it was not needed - the alliance was discarded like a soiled rug. I tend to agree that the current Turkish PM is playing the same game.
  #202  
Old 15.12.2009, 00:18
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Fixed that for you
So why are they Anti "Zionist" ?
  #203  
Old 15.12.2009, 03:46
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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So why are they Anti "Zionist" ?
It is difficult to answer this. I cannot say for sure, Iranians are not Arabs so their reasons are not that simple as a straight Arab-Israeli conflict.
Some of the reasons are just strategic. The US has admitted that they created a coup to get rid of Mossadegh and maintain control and profit form Iranian oil. They have apologized, but if you look at Iraq then you will see that Iran are justified in thinking that given the chance they will try again. The Shah's secret police SAVAK were trained by Mossad. The arms that the Shah used to suppress the Iranian people were obtained through Israel. Israelis have been found training Kurds to create problems on the western border and accused of training Baluchis to attack on the eastern border.

Then there is the injustice that they feel against the Palestinians by the Nationalist Zionists. I find that ordinary Iranian people do have a very strong sense of justice, -look at the massive spontaneous outpouring of sympathy for Americans killed during 9/11.

However the tide is turning- this was evident during the Al Quds day in Iran. Ordinary Iranians are fed up, most educated middle class couples each have to work two jobs in order to keep a roof over their heads. They question why so much money is going out of the country to support Palestinians when they themselves are in need. Also, there are rumours that the Baseej ranks were swelled by Lebanese during the unrest,which has led to much bitterness.

You will probably find that most Iranians are against Nationalist Zionist like the Likud party but they are certainly not anti-Jewish. Basically Iranians feel threatened by everyone- Arabs, Zionists, Communists, Al Qaeda, Sunni Sects,the US, so they tend to come across as paranoid. Unfortunately the truth is that (apart form the proxy war in Palestine) Iran has attacked no-one and really have not had the capability to threaten any other country, yet they have threatened or attacked by all so their paranoia is justified.

Last edited by hoppy; 15.12.2009 at 14:50.
  #204  
Old 15.12.2009, 13:25
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Israel condemns UK attempt to arrest Tzipi Livni


Ms Livni was foreign minister during Israel's Cast Lead military operation

Israel has condemned as "cynical" the issuing of a war crimes arrest warrant in the United Kingdom for former Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni. The warrant, issued by a London Court on Saturday, was revoked on Monday when it was found Ms Livni was not visiting the the UK.
Ms Livni was in post during Israel's controversial Gaza assault last winter.
It is the first time a UK court has issued a warrant for an Israeli former minister.

Full story
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Old 15.12.2009, 14:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The US has admitted that they created a coup to get rid of Mossad and maintain control and profit form Iranian oil.
To get rid of Mossad from where? The US vs Mossad?!

Did you mean something else? Not sure I understand.
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  #206  
Old 15.12.2009, 14:49
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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To get rid of Mossad from where? The US vs Mossad?!

Did you mean something else? Not sure I understand.
Sorry I meant Mossadegh!
  #207  
Old 15.12.2009, 15:11
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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According Parsi - Iran was happy to have israel as any ally as long as it helped to achieve Iranian goals, but as soon as it was not needed - the alliance was discarded like a soiled rug. I tend to agree that the current Turkish PM is playing the same game.
I think playing the Muslim Brotherhood card is helping the current Iran government. They stir up masses who would otherwise question poverty, lack of education and/or rights

Similarly for the Turkish PM. At a time when Turkey was full of its own internal disputes, he started mixing into international conflicts. Some argue that he is trying to gain some international political power by playing the protector of weaker Muslim populations. I think he is rather trying to divert attention from real issues at home ground.
  #208  
Old 15.12.2009, 15:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The Shah's secret police SAVAK were trained by Mossad.
The arms that the Shah used to suppress the Iranian people were obtained through Israel.

Israelis have been found training Kurds to create problems on the western border and accused of training Baluchis to attack on the eastern border.
At most - Israel might have sent some agent to co-ordinate with Savak. in the 70s Israel supported the Iraqi Kurds against the Iraqi govement. Ironically: when the Shah decided to strengthen his ties with Saddam the Israelis had to flee Kurdistan. Neither the Shah or Saddam died peacefully.

I could not find any reliable source that supports any major Israeli involvement in Kurdistan now. But I think that Iran can't really complain if Israel is active at its borders while Iran arms & trains Hamas & Hizbullah.

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Then there is the injustice that they feel against the Palestinians by the Nationalist Zionists. I find that ordinary Iranian people do have a very strong sense of justice, -look at the massive spontaneous outpouring of sympathy for Americans killed during 9/11.

You will probably find that most Iranians are against Nationalist Zionist like the Likud party but they are certainly not anti-Jewish.
What is a "Nationalist Zionist" ? Zionist means supporting a Jewish state in Israel. Anti Semitism is a feature of the Iranian regime - jews have been prosecuted, anti semitic articles & cartoons, Holocaust denial : Iran is an Anti semitic country.

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However the tide is turning- this was evident during the Al Quds day in Iran. Ordinary Iranians are fed up, most educated middle class couples each have to work two jobs in order to keep a roof over their heads. They question why so much money is going out of the country to support Palestinians when they themselves are in need. Also, there are rumours that the Baseej ranks were swelled by Lebanese during the unrest,which has led to much bitterness.

You will probably find that most Iranians are against Nationalist Zionist like the Likud party but they are certainly not anti-Jewish. Basically Iranians feel threatened by everyone- Arabs, Zionists, Communists, Al Qaeda, Sunni Sects,the US, so they tend to come across as paranoid. Unfortunately the truth is that (apart form the proxy war in Palestine) Iran has attacked no-one and really have not had the capability to threaten any other country, yet they have threatened or attacked by all so their paranoia is justified.
Mostly agree. I hope that the current revolution will succeed, and a secular, moderate, pro western government will emerge. A nuclear Iran is bad enough (Arab countries are sure to go nuclear once Iran is), but a Nuclear Islamist Iran is a nightmare.
  #209  
Old 15.12.2009, 18:23
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Israelis execute innocent Macbook

I’m sorry but we blew up your laptop (welcome to Israel)
by lilysussman on November 30, 2009

I was sitting on the deck overlooking the Red Sea. Israeli security officers (most who looked around 18 years old) had completed around two hours of questioning and searching me. They had pressed every sock and scarf with a security device, ripped open soap and had me strip extra layers. They asked me tons of questions–where are you going? Who do you know? Do you have a boyfriend? Is he Arab, Egyptian, Palestinian? Why do you live in Egypt? Why not Israel? What do you know about the ‘conflict’ here? What do you think? They quized me on Judaism,which I know nothing about.
Then they asked me to wait. Since they had asked for friends and families phone numbers I assumed they might be calling to verify my answers to questions or confirm I really had extended family in Tel Aviv. An announcement played over the sound system, interrupting my break in the sunshine. First in Hebrew, then Arabic, then in English. It was something along the lines of, ” do not to be alarmed by gunshots because the Israeli security needs to blow up suspicious passanger luggage.”
I went inside to check on my bag. I had left it unattended, where they instructed. It was still there so I went back outside.
Moments later a man came outside and introduced himself as the manager on duty. And then, “I’m sorry but we had to blow up your laptop. “









Source
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  #210  
Old 15.12.2009, 19:54
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Israel condemns UK attempt to arrest Tzipi Livni

Israel has condemned as "cynical" the issuing of a war crimes arrest warrant in the United Kingdom for former Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni. The warrant, issued by a London Court on Saturday, was revoked on Monday when it was found Ms Livni was not visiting the the UK.
Ms Livni was in post during Israel's controversial Gaza assault last winter.
It is the first time a UK court has issued a warrant for an Israeli former minister.

Full story
Definitely a serious contender for "The most stupid decision of the year"

1. **** off a foreign, friendly goverment for no apparant reason.
2. How can a foreign minister commit war crimes ? Did she shoot Gazan kids from her Jerusalem office window ?
3. Livni is in the opposition, in a left of center party - the arrest warrant reaffrims the governmet position that it doesnt matter what your political opinions, your are automatically guilty because you are an Israeli. Livni was for the pullout from gaza for heaven's sake.
4. She wasn't even in the country.
5. Force your own (British) governmet to apologize.

And to think that the English justice system was held up as a symbol of wisdom & fairness...

In a way, it's shame she wasn'nt arrested - the Trial would have been spectacular.
  #211  
Old 15.12.2009, 19:57
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Israelis execute innocent Macbook
The HD still works, it's only brain dead

Good news for MAC marketing.
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  #212  
Old 15.12.2009, 20:21
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Definitely a serious contender for "The most stupid decision of the year"

1. **** off a foreign, friendly goverment for no apparant reason.
2. How can a foreign minister commit war crimes ? Did she shoot Gazan kids from her Jerusalem office window ?
3. Livni is in the opposition, in a left of center party - the arrest warrant reaffrims the governmet position that it doesnt matter what your political opinions, your are automatically guilty because you are an Israeli. Livni was for the pullout from gaza for heaven's sake.
4. She wasn't even in the country.
5. Force your own (British) governmet to apologize.

And to think that the English justice system was held up as a symbol of wisdom & fairness...

In a way, it's shame she wasn'nt arrested - the Trial would have been spectacular.
I think it was pretty silly, but this was nothing to do with the British Government. It was a couple of Palestinians who used the English courts.

I don't think it should be applied in this case, nor even to any Israelis, but the fact that it was a UK court being used is irrelevant . . . foreign courts are often used for war crimes actions, often its the only way. Think of the Hague ruling on crimes in the Balkans. Also, Israeli courts have often decided on matters beyond their territorial jurisdiction . . . again, this is no bad thing.
  #213  
Old 15.12.2009, 20:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I think it was pretty silly, but this was nothing to do with the British Government. It was a couple of Palestinians who used the English courts.

I don't think it should be applied in this case, nor even to any Israelis, but the fact that it was a UK court being used is irrelevant . . . foreign courts are often used for war crimes actions, often its the only way. Think of the Hague ruling on crimes in the Balkans. Also, Israeli courts have often decided on matters beyond their territorial jurisdiction . . . again, this is no bad thing.
British judges seem to be very gullible these days...

When did Israeli courts decide on matters beyond their territorial jurisdiction ?
  #214  
Old 15.12.2009, 20:37
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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British judges seem to be very gullible these days...

When did Israeli courts decide on matters beyond their territorial jurisdiction ?
Post-World War 2?
  #215  
Old 15.12.2009, 20:39
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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When did Israeli courts decide on matters beyond their territorial jurisdiction ?
Here you go
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  #216  
Old 15.12.2009, 21:12
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Last man prosecuted was in the 80s - Johm Demjanjuk. he was acquitted in Israel. now on trial in Germany.

Considering that the Victims are Israeli citizens - there is case for prosecuting in Israel.

In any case - a few trials of Nazis are Hardly "often", as Gastro Gnome claimed.
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Old 15.12.2009, 21:23
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Last man prosecuted was in the 80s - Johm Demjanjuk. he was acquitted in Israel. now on trial in Germany.

Considering that the Victims are Israeli citizens - there is case for prosecuting in Israel.

In any case - a few trials of Nazis are Hardly "often", as Gastro Gnome claimed.
Israel also sentenced the Munich terrorists, who operated on German soil, in absentia.

I'm not sure we should be quibbling over 'often'.

I accept the justification for Israeli Nazi trials, I was just trying to illustrate extra-territorial jurisdiction for war trials.

British law may be ill-judged in this matter, but I think you were too strident in your immediate criticism.
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Old 15.12.2009, 21:30
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Ok, so we agree that "Often" was not correct.

"Strident" - I think we agree that the decision was not wise or productive. Considering the adjectives, verbs & nouns used to describe Israel & it's actions I think I used rather mild words.

"Immediate" - what should we wait for ?
  #219  
Old 15.12.2009, 21:38
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Ok, so we agree that "Often" was not correct.

"Strident" - I think we agree that the decision was not wise or productive. Considering the adjectives, verbs & nouns used to describe Israel & it's actions I think I used rather mild words.

"Immediate" - what should we wait for ?
I mean immediate in the sense that you might now wish to retract some things you wrote, e.g. '**** off friendly government', 'the British Government should issue an apology' etc etc It's fine to say the law is an ass, it's not fine to rant at those who aren't responsible for the problem.

The words to describe Israel's actions may have been in a warrant issued by a British court, but those are simply the allegations that the Palestinians who started the action put forward.
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Old 15.12.2009, 22:30
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Think of the Hague ruling on crimes in the Balkans. Also, Israeli courts have often decided on matters beyond their territorial jurisdiction . . . again, this is no bad thing.
Under the 4th Geneva convention, any signatory country has the legal right to detain those alleged to have committed or ordered war crimes. It must bring them before its own courts or extradite them to another country that is prepared to prosecute.

"As soon as a contracting party realizes that there is on its territory a person who has committed ... a [grave] breach, its duty is to ensure that the person concerned is arrested and prosecuted with all speed. The necessary police action should be taken spontaneously, therefore, not merely in pursuance of a request from another State."
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