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Old 16.12.2009, 17:31
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

[quote=hoppy;645713




So who is the group of bloggers? the most credible of the bunch is an associate professor- who by all appearances is a Christian Zionist.
The rest are bloggers just like any of us on this site




[/quote]

Are ad hominems the only response you have? What about the points they made? What does their religion have to do with anything?

Last edited by Downerbuzz; 16.12.2009 at 18:13.
  #242  
Old 16.12.2009, 17:33
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

If anyone wants to know more about Christian Zionism then perhaps this video will explain. If you watch at about 4mins 30 you will see that they talk abut millenialism Richard Landes is a millenialist professor. Richard Landes is the chief blogger from the site.

Liebermann and Bush are also supporters- Christians united for Israel (CUKI) which is where they get funding for illegal settlements.

I get fed up with their propaganda. It really annoys me when I go in search of Mulsim reform movements and find that I am on one of their sites again-they appear in all types of guises and are heavily funded.


Last edited by hoppy; 16.12.2009 at 17:53. Reason: explanation
  #243  
Old 16.12.2009, 17:39
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Our ad hominems the only response you have? What about the points they made? What does their religion have to do with anything?
Well I don't have time to read everything, so I normally try to avoid overly partisan material coming from any side.
  #244  
Old 16.12.2009, 17:46
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Our ad hominems the only response you have? What about the points they made? What does their religion have to do with anything?
I could go to crazy house and we could discuss whatever they have to say, but what for?

Okay, so if in essence you are saying what does religion have to do with anything then we are agreed that religion is just a political tool. So Israel has no claim on the land, they are merely attacking because they believe that they are racially superioir and have a right to force non-Jews out. This is racist.

I am so glad that we are agreed that religion has nothing to do with the Israeli claim.
  #245  
Old 16.12.2009, 17:53
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I could go to crazy house and we could discuss whatever they have to say, but what for?

But you prefer to avoid looking at the facts.

Okay, so if in essence you are saying what does religion have to do with anything then we are agreed that religion is just a political tool. So Israel has no claim on the land, they are merely attacking because they believe that they are racially superioir and have a right to force non-Jews out. This is racist.

I am so glad that we are agreed that religion has nothing to do with the Israeli claim.
There has been a jewish presence in that land for thousands of years both religious and cultural. I find the way you draw your conclusions quite bizzare.
  #246  
Old 16.12.2009, 18:00
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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What if the chickens have been firing missiles at the fox for 8 years?
What if the fox has been occupying the chicken's coop for 61 years?
  #247  
Old 16.12.2009, 18:04
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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There has been a jewish presence in that land for thousands of years both religious and cultural. I find the way you draw your conclusions quite bizzare.
Well, I am not sure about the time scale, but there have always been people there- weren't they originally tribes? We can't go back thousands of years to who had what with the tribes, that would be like trying to kick anyone with Viking or Saxon heritage out of the UK- it is impossible! What should we do say OK it doesn't matter if we are all mixed up genetically we should just agree to stick with this one religion? That's a bit one-sided isn't it? Anyway like you said- What's their religion got to do with it?

I actually find Christian Zionist and Zionist logic very bizarre.
  #248  
Old 16.12.2009, 18:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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...I’m sorry but we blew up your laptop (welcome to Israel)
Duh. I bet she had a mouth on her, judging from her side of the story. Two hours plus of security is normal; having kit x-rayed is normal; feeling it's all a bit much is normal. But being a gobby Missy with a suspicious profile won't help procedings...

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... and if we didn't takin it by peace so we need to take another option and that is our right also then ..
A word to the wise, Effendi: try taking it with peace. It'll work.

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Liebermann and Bush are also supporters- Christians united for Israel (CUKI) which is where they get funding for illegal settlements...
Much as I'm indifferent to both, I'm sure neither built illegal settlements
  #249  
Old 16.12.2009, 18:11
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Well, I am not sure about the time scale, but there have always been people there- weren't they originally tribes? We can't go back thousands of years to who had what with the tribes, that would be like trying to kick anyone with Viking or Saxon heritage out of the UK- it is impossible! What should we do say OK it doesn't matter if we are all mixed up genetically we should just agree to stick with this one religion? That's a bit one-sided isn't it? Anyway like you said- What's their religion got to do with it?

I actually find Christian Zionist and Zionist logic very bizarre.
There was actually a Jewish kingdom there until 132 A.D. so it's a bit more than just various tribes.
I never said they should be kicked out. I fully support a two-state solution but it's not Israel who is calling for the destruction of Palestine but rather Hamas calling for the destruction of Israel.
  #250  
Old 16.12.2009, 18:23
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Much as I'm indifferent to both, I'm sure neither built illegal settlements
They are heavy supporters of Christian Zionism and Zionists- have helped with major fundraisers through CUFI

The video make interesting viewing

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-bl...h_b_57826.html
  #251  
Old 16.12.2009, 18:33
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I fully support a two-state solution
And I support a one state solution under UN control.
This user would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
  #252  
Old 16.12.2009, 18:36
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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And I support a one state solution under UN control.
Alleluja, Inshallah, and make it secular, but in the meantime we will be lucky to get two states.
  #253  
Old 16.12.2009, 18:44
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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They are heavy supporters of Christian Zionism and Zionists- have helped with major fundraisers through CUFI

The video make interesting viewing...
It would be interesting reading for the readers if your comments made sense more than half the time. Really, half the time it does, the other half is a mish mash of "What is she talking about?" Nothing personal, but it's hard work sometimes filling in the gaps between what we think you're saying and what you actually write. Unless what we see you write is actually what you want to say...

I need a Gin and Tonic
  #254  
Old 16.12.2009, 18:51
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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There was actually a Jewish kingdom there until 132 A.D. so it's a bit more than just various tribes.
I never said they should be kicked out. I fully support a two-state solution but it's not Israel who is calling for the destruction of Palestine but rather Hamas calling for the destruction of Israel.
Netanyahu (Likud) is a revisionist Zionist from Nationalist Zionism.They are pressing forward destruction ot maske way for illegal settlements on Palestinian land and wherever they settle they bring their army with them- this is an illegal occupation. The Likud party refuse to dismantle settlements. The likud party is literally bulldozing plaestine and using thier army to back up the bulldozers.

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Nationalist Zionism originated from the Revisionist Zionists led by Jabotinsky. The Revisionists left the World Zionist Organization in 1935 because it refused to state that the creation of a Jewish state was an objective of Zionism. The revisionists advocated the formation of a Jewish Army in Palestine to force the Arab population to accept mass Jewish migration. Revisionist Zionism evolved into the Likud Party in Israel, which has dominated most governments since 1977. It advocates Israel maintaining control of the West-Bank and East Jerusalem and takes a hard-line approach in the Israeli-Arab conflict. In 2005 the Likud split over the issue of creation of a Palestinian state on the occupied territories and party members advocating peace talks helped form the Kadima party.
  #255  
Old 16.12.2009, 19:52
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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It would be interesting reading for the readers if your comments made sense more than half the time. Really, half the time it does, the other half is a mish mash of "What is she talking about?" Nothing personal, but it's hard work sometimes filling in the gaps between what we think you're saying and what you actually write. Unless what we see you write is actually what you want to say...

I need a Gin and Tonic
Hmm! Yes that is a common complaint that people have against me. I will try to write more clearly. Basically what I am trying to say is what most people already know, but it doesn't hurt to be reminded from time to time especially when we hear the old refrain that Hamas seeks the destruction of Israel.

It is true that some Hamas (but not all) seek the destruction of Israel. It is an empty threat as they don't have the capability and will never accomplish it, even if they continue to get help from Iran; they just use it as a rallying cry. It is as ineffectual as Iranians chanting death to America or more recently death to Russia. It is pure rhetoric.

On the other hand actions speak louder than words. Israel is destroying the Palestine and killing so many that to me it amounts to genocide. The Likud party have made their revisionist Zionist policy clear, they intend to claim the whole of Jerusalem and maintain control over the West Bank.

Until recently the Likud party had major backing from Christian Zionists:

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Pro-Israel groups and fundamentalist Christian groups have brought significant political and economic pressures to bear on Congress and the Bush presidency. Their support for Sharon’s militant Likud ideology are unquestioned and usually supported by selected Biblical footnotes. Policies such as increased Israeli settlements, the pre-emptive assassination of Palestinian leaders, Israeli sovereignty over all of historic Palestine (especially Jerusalem), and, if it occurs, the expulsion of Palestinian President Yasser Arafat (and indeed the mass expulsion of large sectors of the Palestinian population), would find ready support within the Christian right.
http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle4960.htm

Most notably through they garner support through John Hagee who was an essentail backer to John McCain's bid for the presidency.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0..._n_102892.html

Christian Zionists are still highly influential here in the US, the pockets of their congregation are very deep. Liebermann has called Hagee the 'New Moses' truly a man of god.

The Christian Zionists believe in an apocalyptic Amageddon, in the same vein as the Richard Landes blog that Downerbuzz quoted. They believe that the Zionist must claim the whole of Palestine and more, then after they have claimed it they will convert to the Christianit. That following thier conversion there will be some kind of nuclear explosion and only those Jews that share the Christian zionist view wil reach salvation. All muslims will be destroyed.

It is all very weird and radical, but just like many beliefs it has a trickle down effect and tends to permeate the psyche of even the most rational. Even liberal Christians may start to believe that Jews are God's chosen people and so their actions are in some way excusable. After all they are fighting Muslims just like the Christian crusaders, so they are doing God's work. The massive funding that they receive helps to promote this pro-Zionist propaganda. They are as extreme, nutty and dangerous as radical muslims, they just don't wear turbans and long robes. However their women are probably just as restrained. We talk so much of the hejab yet no-one says much about the practice of Jewish women in their clothing restrictions and the fact tht they must shave their heads and wear wigs. Nor do they say much about the Christian services where fathers educate thier daughters to take the virginity pledge, dress modestly and wear a ring as a sign of teir viginity pledge. We forget that extremism, and sexism takes all forms, not just Muslim.
  #256  
Old 16.12.2009, 19:58
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

"It is true that some Hamas (but not all) seek the destruction of Israel. It is an empty threat as they don't have the capability and will never accomplish it, even if they continue to get help from Iran; they just use it as a rallying cry. It is as ineffectual as Iranians chanting death to America or more recently death to Russia. It is pure rhetoric."

Firstly, it's in the Hamas charter so I don't that would make all of them for it.

When Iran fires thousands of missiles into America or Russia you can make that comparison.
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  #257  
Old 16.12.2009, 19:59
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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And I support a one state solution under UN control.

So you don't believe the Jews have a right to their own state?
  #258  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:13
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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"It is true that some Hamas (but not all) seek the destruction of Israel. It is an empty threat as they don't have the capability and will never accomplish it, even if they continue to get help from Iran; they just use it as a rallying cry. It is as ineffectual as Iranians chanting death to America or more recently death to Russia. It is pure rhetoric."

Firstly, it's in the Hamas charter so I don't that would make all of them for it.

When Iran fires thousands of missiles into America or Russia you can make that comparison.
I jut doesn't carry much weight for Hamas to say that they will destroy Israel, when Israel are sitting on over 400 Nuclear weapons and they have nothing to compare. It reminds me of the Monty Python sketch when the limbless knight threatens to bit his opponenets head off. The attempt to demonize Hamas loses credibility.

I won't hold my breath for Iran firing rockets at the US or Russia. However Israel have already shown that they are fully capable of doing this as illustrated by their attack on Syrian territory.

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From the leaks so far, it seems that more than half a dozen Israeli warplanes violated Syrian airspace to drop munitions on a site close to the border with Turkey. We also know from the US media that the raid occurred in close coordination with the White House. But what was the purpose and significance of the attack?
http://www.counterpunch.org/cook09272007.html
  #259  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:16
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I jut doesn't carry much weight for Hamas to say that they will destroy Israel, when Israel are sitting on over 400 Nuclear weapons and they have nothing to compare. It reminds me of the Monty Python sketch when the limbless knight threatens to bit his opponenets head off. The attempt to demonize Hamas loses credibility.

The intent is there just the same. I'm not attempting to demonize them, I see them for what they are: an internationally recognized terrorist organization.
  #260  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:17
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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There was actually a Jewish kingdom there until 132 A.D. so it's a bit more than just various tribes.
I never said they should be kicked out. I fully support a two-state solution but it's not Israel who is calling for the destruction of Palestine but rather Hamas calling for the destruction of Israel.
Thousands of years ago the Iranians were not Muslim and there were many different types of leaders all over the world- Aboriginal, African, Aztec- -So What?
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