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  #261  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:18
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Thousands of years ago the Iranians were not Muslim and there were many different types of leaders all over the world- Aboriginal, African, Aztec- -So What?
My point is that there was always a jewish presence in that region and the jews have a right to their own state.
  #262  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:19
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I jut doesn't carry much weight for Hamas to say that they will destroy Israel, when Israel are sitting on over 400 Nuclear weapons and they have nothing to compare. It reminds me of the Monty Python sketch when the limbless knight threatens to bit his opponenets head off. The attempt to demonize Hamas loses credibility.

The intent is there just the same. I'm not attempting to demonize them, I see them for what they are: an internationally recognized terrorist organization.
And now Israel may be brought to the International courts for terrorizing a nation. Same thing different scale.
  #263  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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And now Israel may be brought to the International courts for terrorizing a nation. Same thing different scale.

Firstly, when was Palestine ever a nation? Secondly, then you'll have to take the US to court for Dresden & Hiroshima. Russia for Chechnya and the list goes on.
  #264  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:30
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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My point is that there was always a jewish presence in that region and the jews have a right to their own state.
I don't think that Jews have a right to a state because of their claim to the land. they were given the land by the post-war western powers to make up for the Holocaust. The Arabs had no say in it whatsoever. I personally feel that this was unjust but must now be accepted by the Arabs simply because Jews have been persecuted throughout history and they are entitled to some kind of security adn mercy. I think that it was unfair on the Arabs to impose a state, but even more I feel that it unfair that it swept under the carpet the whole issue of anti-semitism in Europe, which still exists. The Arabs paid for the failures of the Europeans to take responsibilty for the Holocaust.
  #265  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:38
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I don't think that Jews have a right to a state because of their claim to the land. they were given the land by the post-war western powers to make up for the Holocaust. The Arabs had no say in it whatsoever. I personally feel that this was unjust but must now be accepted by the Arabs simply because Jews have been persecuted throughout history and they are entitled to some kind of security adn mercy. I think that it was unfair on the Arabs to impose a state, but even more I feel that it unfair that it swept under the carpet the whole issue of anti-semitism in Europe, which still exists. The Arabs paid for the failures of the Europeans to take responsibilty for the Holocaust.

Yet you overlook the anti-semitism of the Arabs. The Arabs were handed the lion's share of the mandate but that wasn't enough for them, they didn't want the jews to have anything. Unfortunately for them it didn't work out the way they hoped.
  #266  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:40
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Firstly, when was Palestine ever a nation? Secondly, then you'll have to take the US to court for Dresden & Hiroshima. Russia for Chechnya and the list goes on.
I was going to add but you beat me to it, that the Palestinians can't even get recognition as a nation. As a nation they do not exist, so I suppose that killing them cannot be considered genocide because you can't kill those that don't exist


What happened in Dresden and Hiroshima is terrible, but that was a world war and I thought that we had already concluded that the balance here is so one-sided in terms of arms that it cannot be considered a war.
  #267  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:46
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Yet you overlook the anti-semitism of the Arabs
Hate to be pedantic, but Arabs are Semitic people... so they can't be anti-themselves??
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  #268  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:55
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I was going to add but you beat me to it, that the Palestinians can't even get recognition as a nation. As a nation they do not exist, so I suppose that killing them cannot be considered genocide because you can't kill those that don't exist


What happened in Dresden and Hiroshima is terrible, but that was a world war and I thought that we had already concluded that the balance here is so one-sided in terms of arms that it cannot be considered a war.

They could have, they consistently choose not to because they prefer the destruction of Israel.

How does the balance of arms play any role in the matter. Japan attacked America, Hamas attacked Israel. What about the balance of arms in 1948 when all eight countries joined together to attack Israel?
  #269  
Old 16.12.2009, 20:58
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Over to you George....

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  #270  
Old 16.12.2009, 21:02
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Hate to be pedantic, but Arabs are Semitic people... so they can't be anti-themselves??
I agree it's an inane term but here's how the dictionary defines it:

discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews
  #271  
Old 16.12.2009, 21:09
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Yet you overlook the anti-semitism of the Arabs. The Arabs were handed the lion's share of the mandate but that wasn't enough for them, they didn't want the jews to have anything. Unfortunately for them it didn't work out the way they hoped.
I agree, but you can't blame them for being miffed that part of their land was just given away. I don't think that was the real cause of animosity though this was:

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Infrastructure and development

Between 1922 and 1947, the annual growth rate of the Jewish sector of the economy was 13.2%, mainly due to immigration and foreign capital, while that of the Arab was 6.5%. Per capita, these figures were 4.8% and 3.6% respectively. By 1936, the Jewish sector had eclipsed the Arab one, and Jewish individuals earned 2.6 times as much as Arabs.. In terms of human capital, there was a huge difference. For instance, the literacy rates in 1932 were 86% for the Jews against 22% for the Palestinian Arabs, but Arab literacy was steadily increasing
I don't think that you can blame the Jews for being so successful. But the burgeoning population of immigrant Ashkenazi Jews from Europe outnumbered the sephardic jews ideology and combined wiht this were the aims of zionism which some jews agree with and some don't, but generally the aims of the Jewish people changed.

That is what I have learned so far, but I don't know enough and would like to learn more about Jewish History as I find them to be a fascinating people.
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  #272  
Old 16.12.2009, 21:09
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Over to you George....


Gotta love that man and his heaps of inaccuracies..
  #273  
Old 16.12.2009, 21:13
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

After all that arguing I'd like to ask; What would be your plan for peace?
This is something someone suggested to me awhile ago and I think it's a pretty good idea:

Israel
Withdraws from over 90 percent of the West Bank and removes settlers from those areas retaining small settlement blocks near the 1967 lines.
Retains Jerusalem but extends authority over Muslim holy sites to Palestinians. Palestinians allowed to have governmental functions based in East Jerusalem.
Conducts land swaps with Palestinians to make Israel as Jewish as possible.
Provides Palestinians with unfettered access to roads connecting the West Bank and Gaza.
Israel draws up a compensationj package for palestinians who were displaced in 1948 and '67.

Palestinians
Abandon right of return for afore-mentioned compensation.
Allow Jews to visit holy sites in the West Bank.
Renounce violence against Israel.
Agree not to build up a military to threaten Israel.
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  #274  
Old 16.12.2009, 21:14
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Gotta love that man and his heaps of inaccuracies..
Can you name a few? Even young Alex came away a convert
  #275  
Old 16.12.2009, 21:24
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Can you name a few? Even young Alex came away a convert

Young Alex sounds like he has the brain capacity of a gnat.

Firstly, the idea that there was never discrimination against jews in muslim countries is a farce. It was certainly not as bad as in europe but there were extra taxes for them and incidents in which they were killed.

Secondly, he said about 500 times that the British took someone else's country. As any historian can tell you, Palestine was never a country.
  #276  
Old 16.12.2009, 22:55
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Firstly, hoppy, the groan was for continuing to use Wikipedia as a source of information and still not bothering to quote your source. I've asked before but really, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

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... It is an empty threat as they don't have the capability and will never accomplish it...

After all they are fighting Muslims just like the Christian crusaders, so they are doing God's work...
Absolute nonsense. You really don't know what you're reciting from Wikipedia. Your talk of "empty threat" is an afront to the those murdered by terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens. How dare you?

Do you have any first hand knowledge of the region or read beyond Wikipedia? Ever been there? Knew any of the Victims?

If you have, you'll know 'empty threat' is the very last attitude Israelis believe when the rockets, suicide bombers and snipers vent their rage on innocents.

Ever been in a conflict zone? Ever felt the fear, even as an observer?

Do you know what the IDF's purpose is? To protect Israel and it's citizens. It's not a matter for discussion. End. Of. Story.

Let me tell you what I know: The regular Israeli soldier is so tired of the whole political stagnation, he or she just wants to do their job and go home to Mamma. In the meantime, they take their role with 100% seriousness and competency. The threat is very, very real and it's a kiss away. Don't patronise us with talk of 'empty threats': the reality is so very different.

Next point: fighting the Muslims? Are you serious? Fighting a terrorist enemy is one thing - no matter how asymetrical you may find it - but nobody is fighting Muslims. Your arguments are ridiculous.

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  #277  
Old 16.12.2009, 23:13
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Over to you George....
George Galloway works for the Iranian government - he has a show on the Iranian satellite channel press TV (his salary from them is available online). He keeps this job, even after the brutal repression of the anti government demonstrations.

He handed over cash to Hamas - which is a a terrorist organization.

and, of course, there is the famous meeting with Mr. S. Hussein of Iraq...

his party, Respect, is the left's answer to the B.N.P (but both are anti semitic).

U.N & U.N human rights commision - no one can claim that the U.N is balanced when it comes to Israel, and one look at the human rights commision member states tells us what to expect from it (hint: it has nothing to do with human rights).
  #278  
Old 16.12.2009, 23:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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...and, of course, there is the famous meeting with Mr. S. Hussein of Iraq...
Gorgeous George does have one outstanding line from that meeting:

"Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability..."





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  #279  
Old 16.12.2009, 23:37
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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"Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability..."
I hope you can at least give him a grudging "well done" for his pugnacious performance on Capitol Hill... he tore those repugnicans a new one.

  #280  
Old 16.12.2009, 23:55
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I see: The man works for tyrants, enjoys the company of terrorists & antisemites- but he is against Israel & the U.S, so he is not all bad...

Dress him in green and send him to Teheran
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