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Old 17.12.2009, 00:06
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I see: The man works for tyrants, enjoys the company of terrorists & antisemites- but he is against Israel & the U.S, so he is not all bad...

Dress him in green and send him to Teheran
If he was so self-evidently corrupt, why do his enemies need to forge documents and engage in smear campaigns just to nail him? Just look at his record in the libel courts, it speaks for itself.
  #282  
Old 17.12.2009, 00:10
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Where did I say he was corrupt ?

unlike the people who vote for him he is not stupid.
  #283  
Old 17.12.2009, 00:48
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I see: The man works for tyrants, enjoys the company of terrorists & antisemites- but he is against Israel & the U.S, so he is not all bad...

Dress him in green and send him to Teheran
He was my local MP when I lived in Bethnal Green.

Useless, totally useless. He didn't do a thing for locals, used it as a platform and only stood originally to oust a high profile Labour MP (Oona King) who was actually a pretty good local MP.
  #284  
Old 17.12.2009, 01:03
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Useless, totally useless. He didn't do a thing for locals, used it as a platform and only stood originally to oust a high profile Labour MP (Oona King) who was actually a pretty good local MP.
King was one of the original Blairs' babes, and it was ultimately her support of the Iraq war which cost her her seat. You have to question that judgement given the huge Bangladeshi Muslim community which she represented, not to mention some of the poorest constituents in the country. If you remember the mood of the country back then, newspaper polls were showing 70% against the war, a million people marched against it and Blair received a standing, slow clap ovation from the Women's Institute

As an MP you would have had to have been mad, bad or deluded to have voted for that war.
  #285  
Old 17.12.2009, 01:05
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Did I say that? If you're asking if I think the U.N. has an anti-Israel bias, my answer is yes.
You absolute right the should have not given , the land in Palestine /Jordon to the Zionist in the first place
  #286  
Old 17.12.2009, 03:21
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Firstly, hoppy, the groan was for continuing to use Wikipedia as a source of information and still not bothering to quote your source. I've asked before but really, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...



Absolute nonsense. You really don't know what you're reciting from Wikipedia. Your talk of "empty threat" is an afront to the those murdered by terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens. How dare you?

Do you have any first hand knowledge of the region or read beyond Wikipedia? Ever been there? Knew any of the Victims?

If you have, you'll know 'empty threat' is the very last attitude Israelis believe when the rockets, suicide bombers and snipers vent their rage on innocents.

Ever been in a conflict zone? Ever felt the fear, even as an observer?

Do you know what the IDF's purpose is? To protect Israel and it's citizens. It's not a matter for discussion. End. Of. Story.

Let me tell you what I know: The regular Israeli soldier is so tired of the whole political stagnation, he or she just wants to do their job and go home to Mamma. In the meantime, they take their role with 100% seriousness and competency. The threat is very, very real and it's a kiss away. Don't patronise us with talk of 'empty threats': the reality is so very different.

Next point: fighting the Muslims? Are you serious? Fighting a terrorist enemy is one thing - no matter how asymetrical you may find it - but nobody is fighting Muslims. Your arguments are ridiculous.

"There are no rules in a knife fight"
Hmm! seem I touched a nerve. So sorry that I forgot to add that the quote was from Wikipedia, but it was pretty obvious especially as you say, considering my Hopipedia record.

I was referring to it being an empty threat that Hamas is calling for the destruction of Israel- they can't destroy Israel, they do not have the same nuclear capability, or, as I said before, anything that can really threaten the existence of Israel.

Yes I have been in a conflict zone and had to run being shot at, seen people shot and killed. I have relatives in Iran, they lived through the terror of the Iraqi bombing and I hope will live through the threatened bombing by Israel. I might have to go myself que seraa seraa- whatever will be will be.....

My father served in Palestine and Lebanon before and after the war and went AWOL there- not sure why, but he told me a lot about it. My family has beautiful pictures that he took of snow on cedars in the Lebanon etc. He loved the Lebanon and Palestine and the people. He was stationed on Malta during the war Malta was the most heavily bombed place on earth.

A friend of mine served as a counsellor for the Israeli forces. I have a lot of respect for her. I have listened to many of her accounts


I did not realize that I was capable of patronizing anyone, least of all you especially as you said before that you don't understand what I am talking about half the time.

I believe that the Israeli soldiers are a cross-section, the same as with any of the services. It sounds like you have close contact with Israeli soldiers, do you know any Hamas or Palestinians?

I guess that as Palestine is not recognized as a state they cannot have an legitimate army so that anyone that fights for Palestine against Israeli acts of aggression is considered a terrorist. Terrorism was a tactic that the Israelis themselves used at one time against the British. You can read about it on page 951 /952 of the Penguin History of the world by Roberts, which is a book highly respected by most experts. (Observer, Telegraph, Economist)
This is one of the books that is in my collection. yes contrary to you allegation you write

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Do you have any first hand knowledge of the region or read beyond Wikipedia?
I do read, and if you look back through my quotes you will see that over the last few pages I have quoted from a range of sources. In fact I referenced one of the books that I have read by Trita Parsi within the last couple of pages suggesting that Pashosh might find it interesting. Perhaps you didn't moderate that section and so missed it. I know that you are allowed to take your moderator cap off when you feel like it, but I think that is quite a rudeand rather ignorant remark, which I take as a personally insult. Yes I read and refernce books and other sources, I may not have the intelligence of some on this forum, I make the effort to learn from a variety of sources and people. Also I do try to keep an open mind.


ebr />
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Do you know what the IDF's purpose is? To protect Israel and it's citizens. It's not a matter for discussion. End. Of. Story.
I guess that Hamas will say the same. They are trying to protect themselves the only way they know.

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Let me tell you what I know: The regular Israeli soldier is so tired of the whole political stagnation, he or she just wants to do their job and go home to Mamma. In the meantime, they take their role with 100% seriousness and competency. The threat is very, very real and it's a kiss away. Don't patronise us with talk of 'empty threats': the reality is so very different.
At the end of their service the Israeli soldier usually gets to go home to his Mama and a comparatively safe home, the same can't be said for a Palestinian.

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Next point: fighting the Muslims? Are you serious? Fighting a terrorist enemy is one thing - no matter how asymetrical you may find it - but nobody is fighting Muslims. Your arguments are ridiculous.
So who are they fighting if not Muslims? I suppose they do fight Christians occasionally. They have bombed hospitals and schools established by the UN. White phosphorus doesn't just target 'terrorists'. White phosphorus would terrify me, it continues to burn slowly into your body after the initial contact, it is a weapon of terror, which makes those that use it against against masses of innocent people terrorists.



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"There are no rules in a knife fight"
I am not really sure what you mean by this. Israel don't have to use knives they have plenty of other arms at their disposal and a highly trained army.

But, yes, I will try to remember to reference my quote in future- my apologies. But truthfully the fire brigade had turned up at my house. The house has hypersensitive-sensitive alarms and I had to attend to them.

Last edited by hoppy; 17.12.2009 at 06:34.
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  #287  
Old 17.12.2009, 06:51
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

This is Guardian article written by Daniel Machover an Israeli human rights lawyer. I was lucky enough to speak to a Israeli Arab human rights lawyer after he had given a recent lecture. I really feel tremendous admiration for the work that these people do, often at great danger to their own personal safety.

A proposed letter to Livni.


"
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It does seem, however, that a judicial decision was taken that there exists a reasonable suspicion that you committed a grave breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which is a criminal offence under our Geneva Conventions Act 1957. Of course, I have not seen any of the evidence that a court would have seen when making that decision. This is entirely right and proper: British ministers cannot interfere in such individual judicial decisions, as we must respect our ancient democratic tradition of non-interference with our independent judiciary. I hold the utmost respect for our independent judges.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...nd-tzipi-livni
I have tried my best to reference this properly. Please accept my apologies if it is incorrect.
  #288  
Old 17.12.2009, 07:34
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Considering you say you know the region and it's present state, it's a crass comment to say 'empty threat'; that we have to read between the lines of what you write and what you mean proves my point. Writing throw away comments such as that does your deep research no favours... and yeah, I know plenty of Palestinians / Jordanians thanks. I spent several years working on the border.
  #289  
Old 17.12.2009, 11:13
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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King was one of the original Blairs' babes, and it was ultimately her support of the Iraq war which cost her her seat. You have to question that judgement given the huge Bangladeshi Muslim community which she represented, not to mention some of the poorest constituents in the country. If you remember the mood of the country back then, newspaper polls were showing 70% against the war, a million people marched against it and Blair received a standing, slow clap ovation from the Women's Institute

As an MP you would have had to have been mad, bad or deluded to have voted for that war.
I'm not making a judgement on the war or the reasons she lost her seat.

I'm just saying she was a far better local MP, i.e. looking into her constituents non-foreign policy related problems.
  #290  
Old 17.12.2009, 13:25
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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And I support a one state solution under UN control.
You also think that living in a dictatorship is ok for most people. at least you are consistent.

The Livni arrest warrant really backfired - Gordon brown is talking about revising the law.
Does anyone know who was the judge that issued the warrant and what evidence he had ?
  #291  
Old 17.12.2009, 13:59
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Does anyone know who was the judge that issued the warrant and what evidence he had ?
You don't need evidence. You need a reasonable suspicion.

Why is the identity of the judge important? This may just have been a local magistrate.
  #292  
Old 17.12.2009, 14:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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You also think that living in a dictatorship is ok for most people. at least you are consistent
A UN mandate may seem like a dictatorship to some Israelis, but it won't seem that way to the Palestinians. And besides, it would only be for a transition phase until a secular state were to emerge.

In my lifetime... Baruch hashem - Inshallah - God Willing.
  #293  
Old 17.12.2009, 15:16
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Just like I said: you are OK with Dictatorships (as long as they are on your side). be careful or you may get what you wish for comrade.

How do you know that Palestinians will not see a the U.N as occupiers ?

What "reasonable suspicion" was presented to the judge ?
  #294  
Old 17.12.2009, 15:19
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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What "reasonable suspicion" was presented to the judge ?
Not sure, but someone should be able to find out. I believe the court records would be available to the public.
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Old 17.12.2009, 15:21
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I'm not sure I could ever see a UN mandate ever being politically acceptable nor practically advisable. In a sense you'd be asking to go back to the situation prior to the creation of Israel, which was very bloody.
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Old 17.12.2009, 16:17
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Not sure, but someone should be able to find out. I believe the court records would be available to the public.
Until now this info is not public (at least, not easy to find online)
  #297  
Old 17.12.2009, 18:14
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

It is a London Judge.

Not attacking Mulsims?

This from the British newspaper The Times (on line)

Quote:
Suspected extremist Jewish settlers today attacked a mosque in the northern West Bank, burning holy books and spraying threatening graffiti in Hebrew on the building, Palestinian officials and Israeli police said.
Extremists broke into the mosque in the village of Yasuf, near the city of Nablus, and burned Korans and copies of the Hadith, or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, and prayer carpets, while spraying slogans on the floor reading “Price tag – greetings from Effi.”
A pile of ash on a scorched carpet was all that remained of around 100 holy books, The Times found.
The so-called 'price tag' is the hardline Jewish settlers’ policy of attacking Palestinians and their property in retribution for any Israeli government curb on settlement expansion. Effi is a Jewish name.

Two incendiary devices with Hebrew writing were found inside the mosque.









http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6953281.ece
  #298  
Old 17.12.2009, 19:12
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Check you stories, Hoppy: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...819790,00.html

btw - Muslims can hardly say the respect other people's places of worship, for example: http://www.theage.com.au/news/middle...377255801.html

not to mention the archeological crime on temple mount...
  #299  
Old 17.12.2009, 19:40
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

[quote=Pashosh;646863]
Quote:
Check you stories, Hoppy: :l
Yes thanks for telling me to check the story I always do- the ones you post too.

Here the Rabbi seems to gives with one hand and takes away with the other.

He says: ( qouting from the article pashosh posted above)

Quote:
Metzger visits Palestinian village, says 'places of prayer must not be attacked, but must also not pose as breeding grounds for incitement or as hiding places of terrorists, weapons'
He was supposed to be there by order of the IDF to calm things down---- with this statement?

Quote:
btw - Muslims can hardly say the respect other people's places of worship, for example: http://www.theage.com.au/news/middle...377255801.html

not to mention the archeological crime on temple mount..
.

This story is from 2005 it says that the Israels left an illegal settlement in Gaza. The Israeli soldiers bulldozed everything but they could not bulldoze the synagogue because it would not look good to have picture of them bulldozing synagogues, so they left to to the Gaza local people to finish it off. The Local people took the materials wiht thier bare hands from the rubble to rebuild their houses that were previously destroyed by the Israeli.

What was left they burned. from the report I qoute:


Quote:
One of the few women present, Ma'soud Aud'allah, 65, was tugging a bent girder from the bulldozed wreckage of a settler home. She did not call it looting.
"This is my land," she said. "My house was near the road and the Israelis destroyed it. I want to use this to rebuild my house. It will be a support for the roof."
One of the messages left on the synagogue was:


Quote:
At the back of the complex another departing Israeli hand had spray-painted another message. In Hebrew it said: "*******s: Call me at …" and it gave an Israeli mobile phone number.
The synagogue was illegally built on Gaza land.



Like Uncle Max says
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a little knowledge is a dangerous thing
-in my Hoppi hands

All that I qouted ( above) are extracts from the links posted by Pashosh.


l
  #300  
Old 17.12.2009, 20:30
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Hoppy: The Rabbi was there because he wanted to be there, nobody told him to go. many other rabbies & even settlers came to the mosque to show solidarity.
What's wrong with his statement: it's well documented that mosques are used for incitment and as weapons cache.

Arabs burned Synagogues in Gaza - there were syngogues in Gaza long before the muslim invasion. Then they moved on to churches http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull - can you see the pattern here ?

ps - the "incendiary devices" are actually crowd dispersing smoke granades, and in very good condition - never seen fire bigger than a match, by the look of them....

"Illegal settlements" - we've discussed this before. you could not point out a single settlement build on the ruins of an arab village or town. Almost all arab villages and towns in "Palestine" are built on the ruins of Jewish ones.
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