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  #321  
Old 18.12.2009, 21:57
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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From the little I read about Hyde & Regents park bombing (wiki) - only soldiers were targeted & hurt, so I would not consider it terrorist attack.
You think nail-bombing a military band while they're playing to the public serves a military purpose?

Stick to your own narrow classifications if you wish, but you're not really doing a good job of recognising reality.
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  #322  
Old 18.12.2009, 22:57
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

[quote=Pashosh;647776]Hoppy fails again to check the facts - The schools were used by Hamas to fire at soldiers. as such they are legitimate targets. Hamas used their own civilians as human shields. quote

So is the Israeli logic that terrorists must be in one of the schools so they'll just bomb all of them to make sure?

Maybe Israel should check their facts before they bomb? Never mind the phosphorus!

From Time magazine:

U.N.: No Hamas Fighters in Bombed Gaza School

Quote:

United Nations investigators say they have uncovered no evidence to support a claim by the Israeli military that Hamas fighters were holed up in a Gaza school, prompting a deadly attack by Israeli forces that killed 40 civilians, many of them children.
The Israel Defense Forces Spokesman's Office asserted that militants fired mortars from inside the school at troops involved in Israel's controversial incursion into the Gaza Strip in pursuit of Hamas fighters — a military operation that is drawing fierce international condemnation as civilian casualties mount. "The IDF returned fire," according to the spokesman's office. (See pictures of Israeli soldiers sweeping into Gaza.)
But after a preliminary investigation of the Jan. 6 attack at the Fakhura girl's elementary school, "we're 99.9% sure that no militants were at the school," says Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). The agency questioned survivors, including UNRWA staff that run the school under U.N. auspices.
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...870087,00.html
  #323  
Old 18.12.2009, 23:24
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Pashosh;647776]Hoppy fails again to check the facts

Look what happens when people start checking facts- who broke the ceasefire?

Video quality is poor but the proof is
incontrovertible

  #324  
Old 19.12.2009, 00:05
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

[quote=hoppy;647840]
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Hoppy fails again to check the facts - The schools were used by Hamas to fire at soldiers. as such they are legitimate targets. Hamas used their own civilians as human shields. quote

So is the Israeli logic that terrorists must be in one of the schools so they'll just bomb all of them to make sure?

Maybe Israel should check their facts before they bomb? Never mind the phosphorus!

From Time magazine:

U.N.: No Hamas Fighters in Bombed Gaza School


http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...870087,00.html
Quote:
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Pashosh;647776]Hoppy fails again to check the facts

Look what happens when people start checking facts- who broke the ceasefire?

Video quality is poor but the proof is
incontrovertible

Hoppy : you just don`t get it . The UN, RED CROSS ,CNN,THE TIME magazin ,der blick etc etc ARE NOT CREDIBLE SOURCES only the israely gov. is.Right Pashosa !
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  #325  
Old 19.12.2009, 00:53
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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You think nail-bombing a military band while they're playing to the public serves a military purpose?

Stick to your own narrow classifications if you wish, but you're not really doing a good job of recognising reality.
I dont know what your military/legal/psychological credentials are - but please don't condescend. I've lived thru several terrorist campaigns which make the IRA/Provos/UDF look like the salvation army so I know a little bit about it.

like I said, I'm not familiar with every engagement the English army ever had, but if someone attacks soldiers then he is not a terrorist. this attack may or may not have military purpose, but it's not a terrorist attack (as long as enough care was taken to avoid civilian casualties). However - if this person is identifiable as a solider, then he may be an "unlawful combatnat" and is subject to civilian law (hence - accused of murder). Bobby sands, for example, started his hunger strike so he would be recognised as a prisoner of war and not a terrorist/unlawful combatant.

The Geneva convention and international law are not up to speed with terrorism - there are a lot of countries which would like to keep it this way (all the members of the Arab league, for example)

Hoppy: can we have one argumet at a time ? please name one army which took more care than the IDF to avoid civilian casualties in similar conditions and then we'll go back to discuss who started (because we already discussed this).

Last edited by Pashosh; 19.12.2009 at 01:03.
  #326  
Old 19.12.2009, 01:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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like I said, I'm not familiar with every engagement the English army ever had.
There is no such thing as the "English army"

Again, you show that you don't know what you're talking about.

How about the PIRA pub bombings? Were they only terrorists sometimes?

You seem to be extremely selective in choosing definitions to suit your viewpoint rather than the other way around.

Last edited by Gastro Gnome; 19.12.2009 at 01:37.
  #327  
Old 19.12.2009, 01:21
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Okay this is not an argument. I feel really mean asking this, I really don't want to offend anyone but I want to know from those who celebrate Hannukah what it means to them.

I was hoping that like Christmas it would be a time of peace and goodwill to all men, so I could wish all the Jews a Happy Hannukah. However this is what I found (and yes it is wikipedia, and yes I will reference it.)

My daughter is performing Hannukah songs at school and being a pacifist I wonder whether I should say something.

This quoted from Wikipedia

Quote:
The classical rabbis downplayed the military and nationalistic dimensions of Hanukkah, and some even interpreted the emphasis upon the story of the miracle oil as a diversion away from the struggle with empires that had led to the disastrous downfall of Jerusalem to the Romans. With the advent of Zionism and the state of Israel, these themes were reconsidered. In modern Israel, the national and military aspects of Hanukkah became, once again, more dominant.
Quote:
An addition is made to the "hoda'ah" (thanksgiving) benediction in the Amidah, called Al ha-Nissim ("On/about the Miracles").[31] This addition refers to the victory achieved over the Syrians by the Hasmonean Mattathias and his sons.

Quote:
"We thank You also for the miraculous deeds and for the redemption and for the mighty deeds and the saving acts wrought by You, as well as for the wars which You waged for our ancestors in ancient days at this season. In the days of the Hasmonean Mattathias, son of Johanan the high priest, and his sons, when the iniquitous Greco-Syrian kingdom rose up against Your people Israel, to make them forget Your Torah and to turn them away from the ordinances of Your will, then You in your abundant mercy rose up for them in the time of their trouble, pled their cause, executed judgment, avenged their wrong, and delivered the strong into the hands of the weak, the many into the hands of few, the impure into the hands of the pure, the wicked into the hands of the righteous, and insolent ones into the hands of those occupied with Your Torah. Both unto Yourself did you make a great and holy name in Thy world, and unto Your people did You achieve a great deliverance and redemption. Whereupon your children entered the sanctuary of Your house, cleansed Your temple, purified Your sanctuary, kindled lights in Your holy courts, and appointed these eight days of Hanukkah in order to give thanks and praises unto Your holy name."
—Translation of Al ha-Nissim
All quotes taken from Wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah
  #328  
Old 19.12.2009, 01:27
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

[quote=Pashosh;647882]I dont know what your military/legal/psychological credentials are - but please don't condescend. I've lived thru several terrorist campaigns which make the IRA/Provos/UDF look like the salvation army so I know a little bit about it.



Give us the date and time when you where in Belfast , maybe it was the Salvation army.I was in Belfast DEC. 1977. My brother in-law got cut in the cross fire ,shot in the hip and foot . Please tell us about your scars
  #329  
Old 19.12.2009, 01:33
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Oh, and by the way Pashosh, your narrow definition of terrorism is in agreement with neither US nor UK law.

I'm actually fairly pro-Israel. I see it as a Western democracy despite its geographical location and therefore deserving of support. I am also no fan of Hamas.

However, your lopsided attempts at argument are swiftly alienating me.
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  #330  
Old 19.12.2009, 01:41
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Gastro Gnome - please cease with the personal insults. Considering you are the one who failed to understand my simple post about the Tzipi livni court ruling...

Like I said - I'm not an expert on everything, Wiki says that the band members belonged to the British army. I called it the "English army" and I apologize to anyone who defines himself as British.

Pub bombings - again, if someone attacks a pub which is frequented by civilians, then he/she is a terrorist. I beleive there was an bombing in a night club in western germany carried out by the IRA - in this case, the bombers were terrorists.

note the BBC called the IRA/ tube bombers in 7.7.2005 terrorists (same for the last attack on a British base in Ulster). but Hamas/PLO are "militants" or "gunmen". even their own reporter was kidnapped by "militants"...
  #331  
Old 19.12.2009, 01:46
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Hoppy - first you jump back to the last war in Gaza, then the Hasmonean revolt, I can't even guess you'll talk about later... your name is very accurate.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question - which army took more care than the IDF to avoid civilian casualties in similar conditions ?

Gastro Gnome - I did not change my definition. What is the U.S / U.K definition of a terrorist ?
  #332  
Old 19.12.2009, 01:48
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I think that I will avoid falling asleep after eating the salty delicacies!

The History of Chanukah embedding disabled- must watch on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZMT6xokxxQ

  #333  
Old 19.12.2009, 01:49
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Like I said - I'm not an expert on everything, Wiki says that the band members belonged to the British army. I called it the "English army" and I apologize to anyone who defines himself as British.

Pub bombings - again, if someone attacks a pub which is frequented by civilians, then he/she is a terrorist. I beleive there was an bombing in a night club in western germany carried out by the IRA - in this case, the bombers were terrorists.

note the BBC called the IRA/ tube bombers in 7.7.2005 terrorists (same for the last attack on a British base in Ulster). but Hamas/PLO are "militants" or "gunmen". even their own reporter was kidnapped by "militants"...
It's not to do with defining yourself as British or English. It's called the British Army. End of story.

http://www.army.mod.uk/

I do not necessarily support the BBC's language. I don't think we're discussing whether Hamas are terrorists or not. This originally started when you were denying whether Lehi or Irgun were terrorists (despite the fact they also applied this definition to themselves).
  #334  
Old 19.12.2009, 01:52
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Gastro Gnome - I did not change my definition. What is the U.S / U.K definition of a terrorist ?
UK Terrorism Act 2000:

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(a) the action falls within subsection (2),
(b) the use or threat is designed to influence the government or to intimidate the public or a section of the public and
(c) the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause.
(2) Action falls within this subsection if it
(a) involves serious violence against a person,
(b) involves serious damage to property,
(c) endangers a person’s life, other than that of the person committing the action,
(d) creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public or
(e) is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.
More detail on terrorist definitions, including the US legal definition here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism
  #335  
Old 19.12.2009, 02:01
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Gasto Gnome - fair enough on both posts. Seeing that there are so many definitions there must be disagrements on the exact definition.

Lehi - neither of us is familiar with the entire text, context etc. so I suggest we stick to known facts, namely: which British civilians did the Lehi attack to terrorize the British public ?
  #336  
Old 19.12.2009, 02:05
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Gasto Gnome - fair enough on both posts. Seeing that there are so many definitions there must be disagrements on the exact definition.

Lehi - neither of us is familiar with the entire text, context etc. so I suggest we stick to known facts, namely: which British civilians did the Lehi attack to terrorize the British public ?
I don't care whether Lehi attacked British civilians. Why does that matter?
  #337  
Old 19.12.2009, 02:10
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Because if they didnt they were not terrorists, even according to your definition.
  #338  
Old 19.12.2009, 02:11
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

[
Quote:
quote=Pashosh;647899]Hoppy - first you jump back to the last war in Gaza, then the Hasmonean revolt, I can't even guess you'll talk about later... your name is very accurate.
Actually I thought that you were getting bashed so I would give you a break- I admire your bravery holding up against so many. I always was a sucker for the underdog- it's a British thing.

Quote:
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question - which army took more care than the IDF to avoid civilian casualties in similar conditions ?


Do you really want to go down this road? we all know that armies have aq tendency to do terrible things. If you do alright I will engage, but I thought that we were making peace? So please give me a nice peaceful interpretation of Hannukah celebrations, so that I can send my friends Happy Hannukah cards.
  #339  
Old 19.12.2009, 02:23
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Because if they didnt they were not terrorists, even according to your definition.
Er, how do you work that out?

And it's not my definition, it's current UK law, which I don't think is necessarily applicable to the Palestinian Mandate! It's more an example of a reasonable contemporary definition.

Lehi and Irgun saw themselves as terrorists . . . that's good enough for me.

One of your earlier statements was 'as long as enough care was taken to avoid civilian casualties'. In the most famous attack carried by Irgun, the attack on the King David Hotel, there were many civilian casualties.
  #340  
Old 19.12.2009, 17:30
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

So you call yourself Jewish?

Quote:
There is a celebrated Talmudic story of a would-be convert who said to a famous rabbi: “I want to become a Jew, teach me the Torah while I stand on one foot”. He received the answer: “What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour. The rest is commentary. Go and learn.”
Quote:
Perhaps we should leave the last word with Sigmund Freud. “Since I don’t believe in any religion whatsoever, including Judaism,” he once said, “and since I despise all forms of nationalism, including Zionism, it may be asked what, then, is left of me that remains Jewish - to which I would reply, a very great deal and probably its very essence.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...h-1844265.html
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