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Old 19.12.2009, 18:48
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Er, how do you work that out?

And it's not my definition, it's current UK law, which I don't think is necessarily applicable to the Palestinian Mandate! It's more an example of a reasonable contemporary definition.

Lehi and Irgun saw themselves as terrorists . . . that's good enough for me.

One of your earlier statements was 'as long as enough care was taken to avoid civilian casualties'. In the most famous attack carried by Irgun, the attack on the King David Hotel, there were many civilian casualties.
You were upset I called the British Army the English army, yet you refer to to "the Irgun" - I assume you mean Etzel (You didnt call Lehi "The stern gang" - thank you).
anyway - whatever an organization calls itself is not relevant. People & organizations are defined by their actions. Migros can call itself an hospital, but no one will get operated at the cash register.

The attack on the British army HQ in the hotel was preceeded by a warning. the Authorities chose to ignore it (The nearby french consulate was warned as well to leave it's windows open to avoid them being smashed by the shockwave. The did - and their windows stayed intact). Army, Manadate officials & civilians paid with their lives for ignoring the warning.

When comparing the Haganah, Etzel & Lehi to other underground organization fighting foreign rule, it's obvious that they behaved with relative restraint. I believe that it was a sign of things to come: Israel has a lively political debate, but political violence is rare (The murder of Rabin is a tragic exception)

Hoppy: this thread is about the Arab-Israeli conflict. If you wish to debate religion open a new thread.

btw - what about my question ?
  #342  
Old 19.12.2009, 19:40
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I'm merely referrring to Irgun as Wiki does . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

I note that Wiki says in present day Israel Irgun is commonly referred to as Etzel. That doesn't mean that either nomenclature is incorrect.

On the bombing, Wiki says:

Quote:
The King David Hotel bombing was an attack carried out by the militant Zionist group Irgun,
If you think that's wrong, perhaps you should try and edit the Wiki entry?

I am in complete agreement that the actions of the Jewish paramilitary groups in the 1930s is less extreme than recent Hamas actions (suicide and missile attacks). That does not mean though that it's wrong to use the word 'terrorist' to describe their actions. Their actions fit with a normal current usage of the word, they described themselves as terrorists, they wrote about the use of terror and contemporaries also described them as terrorists.

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In 1947 "the British army in Mandate Palestine banned the use of the term 'terrorist' to refer to the Irgun zvai Leumi ... because it implied that British forces had reason to be terrified,"[3] but this did not stop others referring to it as a terrorist organization, e.g. the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry,[4] several media sources,[5][6][7][8][9] and a number of prominent world and Jewish figures.[10][11][12] Irgun attacks prompted a formal declaration from the World Zionist Congress in 1946, which strongly condemned "the shedding of innocent blood as a means of political warfare."[13] The Israeli government, in September 1948, acting in response to the assassination of Lord Moyne, dissolved the Irgun and Lehi groups as part of the Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance.[14]
  #343  
Old 19.12.2009, 20:00
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I was wrong - The Etzel is called the Irgun in English.

If you wish to call them terrorists - I guess I can not convince you otherwise. but you'll agree that they were a lot less violent & a lot more concerened with the loss of innocent civilian lives than most other underground guerillas fighting foreign occupation (worldwide).
  #344  
Old 19.12.2009, 20:10
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I was wrong - The Etzel is called the Irgun in English.

If you wish to call them terrorists - I guess I can not convince you otherwise. but you'll agree that they were a lot less violent & a lot more concerened with the loss of innocent civilian lives than most other underground guerillas fighting foreign occupation (worldwide).
I agree.

I do suspect that some of this is just due to the different times we're living in now. Also, the contemporary Israeli army is a much tougher proposition than the British Army then . . .
  #345  
Old 19.12.2009, 20:30
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Hoppy: this thread is about the Arab-Israeli conflict. If you wish to debate religion open a new thread.

btw - what about my question ?
I am trying to be nice, make peace. It's Christmas! If you really want me to answer the question I will but not now there is all the time in the world to argue, it is our luxury while the disadvantaged suffer.

I'll probably answer it in the New Year. meanwhile I will see if I can scrape any compassion out of you with this, they cannot rebuild because of the blockade. If you feel for humanity then yu feel for all, you don't discriminate on the basis of race or religion:


Quote:
Hanan doesn't complain about the tent, but says "the house was better". She adds: "A snake came one night and bit my mother. I can't sleep at night; I'm scared of the snakes and the dogs."
Meals are cooked on a Calor gas stove; the toilets – a hut donated by an Arab charity – are shared by all the families in the compound of tents. "There are big queues," says Hanan. Winter is coming; the tent is "freezing", she says.
There is a community of tent families, circled round the shared lavatories. The children play as all children do, kicking a football, wrestling, dragging sticks through the sand. The families are doing their best in near-impossible circumstances. Some families have even planted small gardens in the scrub: corn and a few flowers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...en-traumatised
  #346  
Old 19.12.2009, 23:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I agree.

I do suspect that some of this is just due to the different times we're living in now. Also, the contemporary Israeli army is a much tougher proposition than the British Army then . . .
The British army in Palestine was not a benevolentz organization - people disappeared (some to this day), British soldiers help arabs kill jewish civilains, arrests without warrant, property wantonly destroyed etc. Still - it could have been a lot worse had it been another army (Russian, shudder...)

Hoppy - I feel sorry for Hanan in Gaza, Hanan who lives in a refugee camp in Lebanon, Hanan who lives in cemetary in Egypt, Hanan who was raped and family murdered in Sudan, Hanan in Syria whos dad was arrested because he told a joke about the wrong person, Hanan in Iraq, Hanan the student in Iran - All the Hanan's who live in a Muslim dictatorships. May they all be free before next xmas !
  #347  
Old 20.12.2009, 00:32
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The British army in Palestine was not a benevolentz organization - people disappeared (some to this day), British soldiers help arabs kill jewish civilains, arrests without warrant, property wantonly destroyed etc. Still - it could have been a lot worse had it been another army (Russian, shudder...)

Hoppy - I feel sorry for Hanan in Gaza, Hanan who lives in a refugee camp in Lebanon, Hanan who lives in cemetary in Egypt, Hanan who was raped and family murdered in Sudan, Hanan in Syria whos dad was arrested because he told a joke about the wrong person, Hanan in Iraq, Hanan the student in Iran - All the Hanan's who live in a Muslim dictatorships. May they all be free before next xmas !
My dad was in that British army-he didn't kill any Jews or destroy property! I am glad that you feel sorry for the oppressed and the politics that cause their predicament. Hopefully if more Israelis agree the blockade can be lifted and the Gaza people be allowed to rebuild.
  #348  
Old 20.12.2009, 03:13
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The British army in Palestine was not a benevolentz organization - people disappeared (some to this day), British soldiers help arabs kill jewish civilains, arrests without warrant, property wantonly destroyed etc. Still - it could have been a lot worse had it been another army (Russian, shudder...)
I'm not claiming the British Army was benevolent.

I'm actually paying a sort of compliment to the IDF and saying they're probably harder to attack than the British Army was then. In addition, the British Army had nowhere near the motivation the IDF does, for obvious reasons. Hence the Palestinians resort to a more extreme strategy.

The sad truth is that terrorism sometimes works, though often only allied with demographic change.
  #349  
Old 20.12.2009, 04:03
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I'm actually paying a sort of compliment to the IDF and saying they're probably harder to attack than the British Army was then. In addition, the British Army had nowhere near the motivation the IDF does, for obvious reasons. Hence the Palestinians resort to a more extreme strategy.
I don't think that the Palestinians would be capable of anything as extreme as bombing schools and hospitals and the use of phosphorus on so many. I wonder where the Israeli army get their motivation from Just to remind readers of the number of deaths due to terrorism. There have been more deaths in the US from terrorism attacks (even 9/11 alone) than in Israel since 2000 or the whole history of the Northern Ireland troubles. There have been more Palestinians deaths than US deaths.

Last edited by hoppy; 20.12.2009 at 09:29.
  #350  
Old 20.12.2009, 13:42
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I don't think that the Palestinians would be capable of anything as extreme as bombing schools and hospitals and the use of phosphorus on so many. I wonder where the Israeli army get their motivation from Just to remind readers of the number of deaths due to terrorism. There have been more deaths in the US from terrorism attacks (even 9/11 alone) than in Israel since 2000 or the whole history of the Northern Ireland troubles. There have been more Palestinians deaths than US deaths.
I'm not comparing the Palestinian militants to the Israeli army, I'm comparing them to the Jewish militant groups of the thirties.
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  #351  
Old 20.12.2009, 17:50
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I had not realized before that the Israeli steal Palestinian body parts for experiments and organ transplant, it seems to have been going on for years Palestinian bodies returned with abdomens cut up the middle and organs missing. Some bodiesare never returned.

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A very small but significant minority of Israelis, including military officers and governmental ministers, hold extremist supremacist views relevant to organ extraction. In 1996, Jewish Week reported that Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburgh, a leader of the Lubavitch sect of Judaism and the dean of a religious Jewish school in a West Bank settlement, stated: “If a Jew needs a liver, can you take the liver of an innocent non-Jew passing by to save him? The Torah would probably permit that.” Ginzburgh elaborated: “Jewish life has infinite value. There is something infinitely more holy and unique about Jewish life than non-Jewish life.” [The Jewish Week, April 26, 1996, pp. 12, 31]
http://www.wrmea.com/component/conte...palestine.html
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  #352  
Old 20.12.2009, 18:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I had not realized before that the Israeli steal Palestinian body parts for experiments and organ transplant, it seems to have been going on for years Palestinian bodies returned with abdomens cut up the middle and organs missing. Some bodiesare never returned.



http://www.wrmea.com/component/conte...palestine.html
Hoppy I think you are in deep Sh!t ,
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  #353  
Old 20.12.2009, 18:42
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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We've discussed this so many times before: the definition of a terrorist is clear: someone who indiscriminately attacks civilians to scare other civilian to achieve a political goal.

Begin & Shamir didn't do it. Palestinians do it all the time and are proud of it.
But only some Palestinians, eh?

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Hoppy I think you are in deep Sh!t ,
No, this whole thread is in the doo doo. I think the title is completely wrong: it's not X versus Y, it ought to be Dialogue on the future of Palestinians and Israelis as neighbours, or somesuch.

The last few pages were almost deleted for being Off Topic, but on review the whole wretched thread is OT. Rather than hack it off and start again - as we tried already - maybe we could have a consensus where the principal players make the effort to have forward looking discussion, rather than getting personal, daft, angry or bored.

Please / Min Fadlukum / Bevakasha / Lütfen / Bitte / S'il vous plaît / Per Favore / Per Plaschair?

Also, how about a 'No Posting on this Thread after Midnight' rule?
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  #354  
Old 20.12.2009, 19:44
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Hoppy - I tried to be polite, but such an antisemitic lie (Israelis stealing palestinian organs) is really too much.

I expect an immediate retraction & apology. A donation to a Jewish charity will show that you are serious.

You may also apologize for claiming that Palestinians don't attack Jewishg schools.

Until then, I'm afraid there is no point in discussion.
  #355  
Old 20.12.2009, 20:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Hoppy - I tried to be polite, but such an antisemitic lie (Israelis stealing palestinian organs) is really too much.

I expect an immediate retraction & apology. A donation to a Jewish charity will show that you are serious.

You may also apologize for claiming that Palestinians don't attack Jewishg schools.

Until then, I'm afraid there is no point in discussion.
Have Israel opened up the files and allowed it to be investigated?



Quote:
It should also be noted, as Bostrom points out, that in the early 1990s Israel was suffering from an acute shortage of organ donors to the extent that Ehud Olmert, health minister at the time, launched a public campaign to encourage Israelis to come forward.

This offers a possible explanation for Hiss’ actions. He may have acted to help make up the shortfall.

Given the facts that are known, there must be at least a very strong suspicion that Hiss removed organs without authorisation from some Palestinians he autopsied. Both this issue, and the army’s possible role in supplying him with corpses, needs investigation.

Hiss is also implicated in another long-running and unresolved scandal from Israel’s early years, in the 1950s, when the children of recent Jewish immigrants to Israel from Yemen were adopted by Ashkenazi couples after the Yeminite parents had been told that their child had died, [9] usually after admission to hospital.

After an initial cover-up, the Yeminite parents have continued pressing for answers from the state, and forced officials to reopen the files. [8] The Palestinian families deserve no less.

However, unlike the Yemenite parents, their chances of receiving any kind of investigation, transparent or otherwise, look all but hopeless.
http://aljazeera.com/news/articles/3...gan-Theft.html
  #356  
Old 20.12.2009, 20:24
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

You heard me - I expect a retraction & apology, and the answer to your question is yes.

This will be my final communication with you about this until you apologize (some googling will help you see how wrong your claim is and how offending).
  #357  
Old 20.12.2009, 20:33
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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You heard me - I expect a retraction & apology, and the answer to your question is yes.

This will be my final communication with you about this until you apologize (some googling will help you see how wrong your claim is and how offending).
So Israel should sue counterpunch.
Quote:
The fact is, however, that substantiated evidence of public and private organ trafficking and theft, and allegations of worse, have been widely reported for many years. Given such context, the Swedish charges become far more plausible than might otherwise be the case and suggest that an investigation could well turn up significant information.
Below are a few examples of previous reports on this topic.
//www.counterpunch.org/weir08282009.html






It goes on to catalogue the different issues, especially interesting is the case of the Scot Alisdair Sinclair.



Quote:
The family scraped up the money, brought the body home, and had an autopsy performed at the University of Glasgow. It turned out that Alisdair’s heart and a tiny throat bone were missing. At this point the British Embassy filed a complaint with Israel.
The J report states:
“A heart said to be Sinclair's was subsequently repatriated to Britain, free of charge. James wanted the [Israeli] Forensic Institute to pay for a DNA test to confirm that this heart was indeed their brother's, but the Institute's director, Professor Jehuda Hiss refused, citing the prohibitive cost, estimated by some sources at $1,500.”
Despite repeated requests from the British Embassy for the Israeli pathologist's and police reports, Israeli officials refused to release either.
http://www.counterpunch.org/weir08282009.html

The writer of the article Alison Weir has been praised for her accuracy and fairness in Journalism:

Quote:
If Americans Knew has been lauded by the media monitoring organization Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR).[14]
Thomas Campbell, former California Republican Senatorial candidate and current Dean of the Haas School of Business at the University of California Berkeley, said of Weir's work at If Americans Knew:
"Ms. Weir presents a powerful, well documented view of the Middle East today. She is intelligent, careful, and critical. American policy makers would benefit greatly from hearing her first-hand observations and attempting to answer the questions she poses." Weir was inducted into the Phi Alpha Literary Society at Illinois College in 2004, the award citing her as "Courageous journalist-lecturer on behalf of human rights. The first woman to receive an honorary membership in Phi Alpha history."[15] [16]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_Americans_Knew


If it can be proved to be lies I will apologize. It is pretty sickening and I don't want to believe it but would like to see it be irrevocable proven untrue.

I have tried to look at the reports from Jewish magazine that originally covered the similar stories to get a balance but strangely non of the links seem to be working.

Last edited by hoppy; 22.12.2009 at 21:18. Reason: Who is writer?
  #358  
Old 20.12.2009, 21:24
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Check the news - the Israeli govemernment condemned the Israeli extrermists, investigated & prosecuted them.

The majority of the Palestinians voted for palestinian terrorists.

Every nation gets the leader it deserves.

A majority of Palestinians voted, in protest against the corruption of the P.A., in favour a an alternative party. Democracy however means to have the chance to correct what you voted before and this means the next elections. THIS is the reason why democracies have a pattern of new elections. Your talk about "terrorists" however is rubbish as you only see the one aspect and not what really matters .... matters AGAINST the stubborn extremists of Hamas. Who will lose their parliamentary majority in the next elections.
  #359  
Old 20.12.2009, 21:26
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Both Begin & Shamir were not terrorsits, they fought against one of the most powerful armies at the time - The British army. and won.
They clearly WERE criminals, and did not fight against an army but against the parents of the soldiers of that army and against a dedicated peacemaker, Count Bernadotte.
  #360  
Old 20.12.2009, 21:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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the answer in in the question: it was a political assassination. the murderers were convicted and jailed.
-
some were caught and others were not. And political assassinations are crime actions clearly.
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