Israel - Palestine - Part 2 - Page 19

Wollishofener · #**361** 20.12.2009, 20:29

	Quote:	Pashosh
	We've discussed this so many times before: the definition of a terrorist is clear: someone who indiscriminately attacks civilians to scare other civilian to achieve a political goal. Begin & Shamir didn't do it. Palestinians do it all the time and are proud of it.

Begin and Shamir did it all the time, in order to achieve a political goal. Most Palestinians do NOT.

flavio · #**362** 20.12.2009, 20:30

I have another question for the thread:

Why is the Palestinian cause so popular and the Israeli one so unpopular?
Which could be rephrased as, why Israel's PR sucks so much?

Wollishofener · #**363** 20.12.2009, 20:32

	Quote:	nasa2000
	To my knowledge no one was jailed for it. Yes there were arrests for members of the Lehi group but no one had a sentence for it ( correct me). Anyways, this is not my point, the question is : Did Yitzhak Shamira approve the assassination of a UN representative or not? Yes he did! so I don't understand in what context you trying to put him as a hero.

Sure, there were no convictions. And Shamir according to his own declarations later on was proud of it

Wollishofener · #**364** 20.12.2009, 20:35

	Quote:	Gastro Gnome
	Oh, and what about Deir Yassin?

-
DEir Yassin, the massacre par excellence, according to Israeli sources not just was an accident, it was caused by those who disobeyed the Israeli recommendation to get out !

Wollishofener · #**365** 20.12.2009, 20:38

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Hoppy fails again to check the facts - The schools were used by Hamas to fire at soldiers. as such they are legitimate targets. Hamas used their own civilians as human shields. Israel did not seek to terrorisze the population of Gaza - had it wished to do so, it could have stopped electricity, water supply etc- instead, israel provided Gazan with a daily ceasefire, emergency hospital servies etc. Please name an Army which treated enemy civilians better, while it's civilians are targeted - Gaza could have looked like Dresden or Hiroshima. Al Quade's attack on USS cole was a legitimate act of war against a military target well able to defend itself. definitely not a terrorist attack. From the little I read about Hyde & Regents park bombing (wiki) - only soldiers were targeted & hurt, so I would not consider it terrorist attack. Lehi's publication - I'm not familiar with it, but judge them by their actions - how many British civilians did they kill ? Deir Yassin was a battle in a built area - Arab civilians and Jewish soldiers were killed. After the battle vastly exaggarated reports of rape & murder were told - they were all proven wrong. including by arab scholars. Ironically - the Arabs believed these stories, fled and became refugees without ever seeing a single israeli soldier. count B. Murder was a Murder - I did not condone it.

Arabs in Palestine systematically were put into panic to flee and many were calmly informed they had 24 hours to get as "otherwise", for instance in the Haifa area. Sorry, but you on here condone pressurizing, murder and more ..

Wollishofener · #**366** 20.12.2009, 20:41

[quote=hoppy;647840]

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Hoppy fails again to check the facts - The schools were used by Hamas to fire at soldiers. as such they are legitimate targets. Hamas used their own civilians as human shields. quote So is the Israeli logic that terrorists must be in one of the schools so they'll just bomb all of them to make sure? Maybe Israel should check their facts before they bomb? Never mind the phosphorus! From Time magazine: U.N.: No Hamas Fighters in Bombed Gaza School http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...870087,00.html

Whatever, the Israelis still maintain their claim that this school was a basis for Hamas military operations

Wollishofener · #**367** 20.12.2009, 20:43

[quote=cannut;647864]

	Quote:	hoppy
	Hoppy : you just don`t get it . The UN, RED CROSS ,CNN,THE TIME magazin ,der blick etc etc ARE NOT CREDIBLE SOURCES* only the israely gov. is.Right Pashosa !*

Don't you know that UNO, Red Cross, CNN, Time Magazine, etc all are under Arab influence and against Israel ???

Wollishofener · #**368** 20.12.2009, 20:44

	Quote:	Pashosh
	I dont know what your military/legal/psychological credentials are - but please don't condescend. I've lived thru several terrorist campaigns which make the IRA/Provos/UDF look like the salvation army so I know a little bit about it. like I said, I'm not familiar with every engagement the English army ever had, but if someone attacks soldiers then he is not a terrorist. this attack may or may not have military purpose, but it's not a terrorist attack (as long as enough care was taken to avoid civilian casualties). However - if this person is identifiable as a solider, then he may be an "unlawful combatnat" and is subject to civilian law (hence - accused of murder). Bobby sands, for example, started his hunger strike so he would be recognised as a prisoner of war and not a terrorist/unlawful combatant. The Geneva convention and international law are not up to speed with terrorism - there are a lot of countries which would like to keep it this way (all the members of the Arab league, for example) Hoppy: can we have one argumet at a time ? please name one army which took more care than the IDF to avoid civilian casualties in similar conditions and then we'll go back to discuss who started (because we already discussed this).

If somebody sends letter bombs to the parents of soldiers , he IS a terrorist indeed

Wollishofener · #**369** 20.12.2009, 20:48

	Quote:	Pashosh
	I dont know what your military/legal/psychological credentials are - but please don't condescend. I've lived thru several terrorist campaigns which make the IRA/Provos/UDF look like the salvation army so I know a little bit about it. like I said, I'm not familiar with every engagement the English army ever had, but if someone attacks soldiers then he is not a terrorist. this attack may or may not have military purpose, but it's not a terrorist attack (as long as enough care was taken to avoid civilian casualties). However - if this person is identifiable as a solider, then he may be an "unlawful combatnat" and is subject to civilian law (hence - accused of murder). Bobby sands, for example, started his hunger strike so he would be recognised as a prisoner of war and not a terrorist/unlawful combatant. The Geneva convention and international law are not up to speed with terrorism - there are a lot of countries which would like to keep it this way (all the members of the Arab league, for example) Hoppy: can we have one argumet at a time ? please name one army which took more care than the IDF to avoid civilian casualties in similar conditions and then we'll go back to discuss who started (because we already discussed this).

It may sound sensational but is the simple truth : the US armed forces ! Yes, we all since the days of the War In Vietnam, speak a lot of what went wrong there and overthere. Reality is that the US armed forces in between 1917 and now in general did quite a lot TO AVOID CIVILIAN CASUALTIES in similar conditions. And this, Sir, is proven most seriously !

#**370** 20.12.2009, 20:50

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	A majority of Palestinians voted, in protest against the corruption of the P.A., in favour a an alternative party. Democracy however means to have the chance to correct what you voted before and this means the next elections. THIS is the reason why democracies have a pattern of new elections. Your talk about "terrorists" however is rubbish as you only see the one aspect and not what really matters .... matters AGAINST the stubborn extremists of Hamas. Who will lose their parliamentary majority in the next elections.

Unfortunately it looks like the seige of Palestine is causing the bunker mentality to proliferate with more turning to Hamas. This from Haniyeh:

	Quote:
	“We will never give up on Palestine from the river to the sea," Haniya told the crowd, referring to the pre-1948 borders of the British Palestine Mandate between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. "It is not enough for Hamas to liberate Gaza, nor to establish an emirate in Gaza, nor a state, nor an independent entity... Hamas strives to liberate all of Palestine."

http://tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=3883

Only last year he was willing to accept the 1967 border
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html

I hope he speaks for himself and not all of Hamas.

http://tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=3883

cannut · #**371** 20.12.2009, 20:51

[quote=Wollishofener;648888]

	Quote:	cannut
	Don't you know that UNO, Red Cross, CNN, Time Magazine, etc all are under Arab influence and against Israel ???

Sorry Wolli

I dried to be sarcastic

cannut · #**372** 20.12.2009, 20:59

[quote=flavio;648875]I have another question for the thread:

Why is the Palestinian cause so popular and the Israeli one so unpopula Easey to answer :I hold Israel to higher standards.2nd The land in question was given to Israel by the UN ,so they should live by the UN rules

Wollishofener · #**373** 20.12.2009, 21:00

	Quote:	Pashosh
	I was wrong - The Etzel is called the Irgun in English. If you wish to call them terrorists - I guess I can not convince you otherwise. but you'll agree that they were a lot less violent & a lot more concerened with the loss of innocent civilian lives than most other underground guerillas fighting foreign occupation (worldwide).

The Levi Irgun was as criminal as the Muslim Brotherhood of Sheikh Ahmed Hassan el-Banna, but shared many many similarities with them

Wollishofener · #**374** 20.12.2009, 21:04

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Hoppy - I feel sorry for Hanan who lives in a refugee camp in Lebanon, Hanan who lives in cemetary in Egypt, Hanan who was raped and family murdered in Sudan, Hanan in Syria whos dad was arrested because he told a joke about the wrong person, Hanan in Iraq, Hanan the student in Iran - All the Hanan's who live in a Muslim dictatorships. May they all be free before next xmas !

Lebanon and Egypt are not "Muslim Dictatorships", and Syria while being a dictatorship is not a "Muslim" dictatorship. Iraq according to US American news agencies is a democracy.

Wollishofener · #**375** 20.12.2009, 21:07

	Quote:	Pashosh
	Hoppy - I tried to be polite, but such an antisemitic lie (Israelis stealing palestinian organs) is really too much. I expect an immediate retraction & apology. A donation to a Jewish charity will show that you are serious. You may also apologize for claiming that Palestinians don't attack Jewishg schools. Until then, I'm afraid there is no point in discussion.

Sorry, but I might expect you to abstain from using the "antisemitic" label for anything on here. As long as you do, there is no point in your "arguments"

Wollishofener · #**376** 20.12.2009, 21:10

	Quote:	Pashosh
	You heard me - I expect a retraction & apology, and the answer to your question is yes. This will be my final communication with you about this until you apologize (some googling will help you see how wrong your claim is and how offending).

Threats are not arguments. And the threat to terminate communication might be valued as blackmail

Wollishofener · #**377** 20.12.2009, 21:15

	Quote:	flavio
	I have another question for the thread: Why is the Palestinian cause so popular and the Israeli one so unpopular? Which could be rephrased as, why Israel's PR sucks so much?

Is the Palestinian cause popular ? It is a no cause in the USA, and in Europe it just is a cause for "alternative" people and the journalists. I still remember June 1967 when Israel was TOP popular and supported in Europe by 99% of the people. The Israelis were beloved by everybody. This in Europe has faded away to some extent and most of Western Europe now is open to a more balanced view.

Wollishofener · #**378** 20.12.2009, 21:18

	Quote:	hoppy
	Unfortunately it looks like the seige of Palestine is causing the bunker mentality to proliferate with more turning to Hamas. This from Haniyeh: http://tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=3883 Only last year he was willing to accept the 1967 border http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html I hope he speaks for himself and not all of Hamas. http://tripolipost.com/articledetail.asp?c=1&i=3883

You hope in vain as he DOES speak for ALL of Hamas. But Hamas in reality still, in spite of their surprise success in the last parliamentary elections, is a fringe organisation

Wollishofener · #**379** 20.12.2009, 21:20

[quote=cannut;648895]

	Quote:	Wollishofener
	Sorry Wolli I dried to be sarcastic

are you sure ? Sure that not we all in the media business are just PR agents of the Palestinians ?

Pashosh · #**380** 20.12.2009, 21:54

wow - so many post by wollishofener, and most (if not all) addressed to me ! I'm almost flattered...

I'll choose one topic to discuss, if I may - the treatment of civilians.
The U.S Armed forces - the richest, most techonologicaly advanced army the world has ever known is a great army. I've had the honor & the pleasure of meeting & working with it. But when it come to civiilan population treatment it's way behind the Israeli army - in fact, the U.S armed forced openly train with Israelis in Urban warfare scenarios, with Israelis acting as instructord.

The casualty figures speak for themeselves, as well as methods. Had Israel used "Shock & awe" tactics in Gaza the arab civilian casualties would have been a lot higher.

Wollishofener: what do you think about Hariri's Jr. visit to Syria ?