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  #381  
Old 20.12.2009, 23:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I have another question for the thread:

Why is the Palestinian cause so popular and the Israeli one so unpopular?
Which could be rephrased as, why Israel's PR sucks so much?
I asked that one myself, and still don't have an answer...

Maybe it's popular inthe west because it ticks so many boxes -
1. religious (Jews/Muslims/Christians),
2. political (past: Democracy Vs. communism, today: Democracy Vs. political Islam)
3. distance - Israel is only 4 hours away.
4. comfort - Israel is an open society, everybody has (at least one) opinion and speaks (at least one) European language. Lots' of comfortable hotels with no alcohol restrictions.
5. Risk - very low risk for Journalists & tourists, but a good chance to wear a flak jacket & helmet and do some "front line reporting" (followed, a few minutes later by a nice meal & few drinks at one of the hotels mentioned in item 4). Plus - Rabbies don't issue Fatwas.

Israel has the highest ratio of Journalists per square km in the world...
  #382  
Old 21.12.2009, 10:01
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I had not realized before that the Israeli steal Palestinian body parts for experiments and organ transplant, it seems to have been going on for years Palestinian bodies returned with abdomens cut up the middle and organs missing. Some bodiesare never returned.



http://www.wrmea.com/component/conte...palestine.html
Usually when Israel admits something, its damage limitation for an even greater story.

Doctor admits Israeli pathologists harvested organs without consent

Ian Black, Middle East editor
guardian.co.uk
Sunday 20 December 2009 21.46 GMT

Israel has admitted that pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others without the consent of their families – a practice that it said ended in the 1990s, it emerged at the weekend.
The admission, by the former head of the country's forensic institute, followed a furious row prompted by a Swedish newspaper reporting that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to use their organs – a charge that Israel denied and called "antisemitic".
The revelation, in a television documentary, is likely to generate anger in the Arab and Muslim world and reinforce sinister stereotypes of Israel and its attitude to Palestinians. Iran's state-run Press TV tonight reported the story, illustrated with photographs of dead or badly injured Palestinians.
Ahmed Tibi, an Israeli Arab MP, said the report incriminated the Israeli army.
The story emerged in an interview with Dr Yehuda Hiss, former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv. The interview was conducted in 2000 by an American academic who released it because of the row between Israel and Sweden over a report in the Stockholm newspaper Aftonbladet.

Full story

Last edited by Castro; 22.12.2009 at 15:48.
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  #383  
Old 21.12.2009, 18:32
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Usually when Israel admits something, its damage limitation for an even greater story.

Israel admits harvesting Palestinian organs

Ian Black, Middle East editor
guardian.co.uk
Sunday 20 December 2009 21.46 GMT

Israel has admitted that pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others without the consent of their families – a practice that it said ended in the 1990s, it emerged at the weekend.
The admission, by the former head of the country's forensic institute, followed a furious row prompted by a Swedish newspaper reporting that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to use their organs – a charge that Israel denied and called "antisemitic".
The revelation, in a television documentary, is likely to generate anger in the Arab and Muslim world and reinforce sinister stereotypes of Israel and its attitude to Palestinians. Iran's state-run Press TV tonight reported the story, illustrated with photographs of dead or badly injured Palestinians.
Ahmed Tibi, an Israeli Arab MP, said the report incriminated the Israeli army.
The story emerged in an interview with Dr Yehuda Hiss, former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv. The interview was conducted in 2000 by an American academic who released it because of the row between Israel and Sweden over a report in the Stockholm newspaper Aftonbladet.

Full story
Sorry Pashosh! Just to show I am still impartial I opt to donate my organs. I don't mind who gets them.
  #384  
Old 21.12.2009, 20:55
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Usually when Israel admits something, its damage limitation for an even greater story.
Israel admits harvesting Palestinian organs
What greater story - when you read the full story the facts are clear:during a decade (roughly 1990 - 2000) body parts were taken from bodies, whose families agreed to a post mortem, but not to organ donations. These body parts (mostly skin & cornea) were GIVEN (not sold, like some arab doctors do) to hospitals. scores of people were given a new lease on life. This may have been against the law, but definitetly not sinister.
The Bodies were of Soldiers, Jews, arabs, kids & adults - whoever was killed violently or under suspicious circumstances.

Not even the antisemite Swedesh "journalist" which started this blood libel claims that Israel killed palestininas for their organs.

Only an Antisemite would claim that. Hoppy's post ("Israeli steal Palestinian body parts for experiments and organ transplant") is antisemite.

Egyptian organ trade: http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6917

Last edited by Pashosh; 21.12.2009 at 21:09.
  #385  
Old 21.12.2009, 21:25
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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What greater story - when you read the full story the facts are clear:during a decade (roughly 1990 - 2000) body parts were taken from bodies, whose families agreed to a post mortem, but not to organ donations. These body parts (mostly skin & cornea) were GIVEN (not sold, like some arab doctors do) to hospitals. scores of people were given a new lease on life. This may have been against the law, but definitetly not sinister.
The Bodies were of Soldiers, Jews, arabs, kids & adults - whoever was killed violently or under suspicious circumstances.

Not even the antisemite Swedesh "journalist" which started this blood libel claims that Israel killed palestininas for their organs.

Only an Antisemite would claim that. Hoppy's post ("Israeli steal Palestinian body parts for experiments and organ transplant&quot is antisemite.
Hiss is a nasty guy it was mainly his fault that this happened. I am not an anti-semite. I am an anti-Zionist. I think that was a policy in Israel to carry out a post-mortem whether or not it is requested, as was the case with the Scottish man whose heart went missing. They did it to deceased Jews too! The bigger question is the trade of organs. Also, one ofthe reasons that the jews get such bad press is that many Jews choose to divulge the wrongs committed by Israel themselves. It is a pity that more people from Gaza do not have the courage to do the same with Hamas. Sometimes I feel that at least some Israelis have effective leadership if they choose to elect it, however with a corrupt PLA/ Fatah and Muslim extremists in Hamas what choice do Palestinians have? Choose Fatah who will play into the hands of Likud or be governed by a Muslim theocracy. Sometimes I think let the self-hating left-wing Jews govern Palestine, but No, no Zionists!
  #386  
Old 22.12.2009, 15:41
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

The Guardian apologizes for antisemitic headline:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardia...clarifications

Too late - Like other lies before, the headline will be remembered, the apology - not.
  #387  
Old 22.12.2009, 15:50
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The Guardian apologizes for antisemitic headline:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardia...clarifications

Too late - Like other lies before, the headline will be remembered, the apology - not.
Therefore in the spirit of good posting etiquette, I've also amended my post.
  #388  
Old 22.12.2009, 16:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The Guardian apologizes for antisemitic headline:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardia...clarifications

Too late - Like other lies before, the headline will be remembered, the apology - not.
So they should amend it to Israel admits harvesting Palestinian and Israeli organs without consent.

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We should not have put the headline "Israel admits harvesting Palestinian organs" on a story about an admission, by the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, that during the 1990s specialists at the institute harvested organs from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers without getting permission from the families of the deceased (21 December, page 15). That headline did not match the article, which made clear that the organs were not taken only from Palestinians.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardia...clarifications

It is really starnge to me that some jews refuse non-Kosher meat but accept Palestinian organs. Muslims will eat non- halal meat in certain circumstances, but I don't think that they will accept non-Muslim organs.
Many Iranians sell their organs, which has the highest number of transplants in the world. It is the only country where it is legal to sell your organs

  #389  
Old 22.12.2009, 16:33
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

It would be conducive if we could move on from forensically examining every iota of mis/information that comes out of the region and perhaps focus on what to do next. It serves no purpose when reduced to tit-for-tat claim and counter-claim and I'm sure doesn't attract members to post.
  #390  
Old 22.12.2009, 17:06
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Here's my solution. Get Iran and the US out of the region. Divide Jerusalem. Move all settlers back to the the 67 border. Move international forces in and help Palestine rebuild. Easy huh?
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Old 22.12.2009, 18:40
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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What greater story - when you read the full story the facts are clear:during a decade (roughly 1990 - 2000) body parts were taken from bodies, whose families agreed to a post mortem, but not to organ donations. These body parts (mostly skin & cornea) were GIVEN (not sold, like some arab doctors do) to hospitals. scores of people were given a new lease on life. This may have been against the law, but definitetly not sinister.
The Bodies were of Soldiers, Jews, arabs, kids & adults - whoever was killed violently or under suspicious circumstances.
I agree that it's wrong to suggest that Israel killed with the intent of harvesting organs.

But are you saying it's ok to collect organs without the permission of families?

In that case, do you think the US and UK for instance, are running the wrong systems at the moment and should switch to an donor opt out rather than opt in?
  #392  
Old 22.12.2009, 21:00
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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... It serves no purpose when reduced to tit-for-tat claim and counter-claim and I'm sure doesn't attract members to post.
Refuting an Antisemitic lie is Tit for tat ?
  #393  
Old 22.12.2009, 22:11
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I agree that it's wrong to suggest that Israel killed with the intent of harvesting organs.

But are you saying it's ok to collect organs without the permission of families?

In that case, do you think the US and UK for instance, are running the wrong systems at the moment and should switch to an donor opt out rather than opt in?
I never said it was ok to collect organs without permission- and I agree with the current Israeli law which requires either signing a donor card or family permission.

Israeli - Arab conflict: I think it's time to think out of the box.
So far the pattern was: Israel gives land, dismantles villages & town and gets an improved cease fire agreement. These agreemenst have so far were not a great success as real peace, but prevented (delayed?) wars. Arab assumed time is on their side and Israel will continue to make concessions.

Maybe Israel should do the following:

1. Open up the west bank settlements for Arabs. maybe even topple Hamas and re-build settlemnets in Gaza. this would encourage real co-operation at local level (schools, workplaces, health system).

2. Arab media should broadcast some positive stories about Israel - no need to search hard, lots already exist but are ignored.

3. Israel should Legalize drugs - reduce agression, expenditure on police, increase tax revenue

4. Get the "peace activists" to put their money were their mouths are - each group will sponsor a part of the seperation barrier, tear it down. For every terrorist which gets thru the group will pay 10 Million dollar. or they could keep their money (and the wall).

5. Sports: Israel should play against the neighbouring countries teams. Any county which will refuse to play Israel will be banned from FIFA/Olympics/International sports organizations.
  #394  
Old 22.12.2009, 22:54
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Pashosh you threatened me about this story and said that I must apologize to you. Well it seems that my suspicions were right, but you remain in damage control refusing to believe what happened and not apologizing for threatening me.
I would just like you to take 1 minute to suppose that it was the Plestinians who took the body parts without permission. Imagine today that there were probably Hamas supporters walking around with skin, cornea, heart. liver heart kidney, bones of a relative of yours. How would you feel and how would you go about posting it on this thread? How would you feel if I was to answer, after denying that it could ever happen, that well the practice ended a few years ago and the doctors in Gaza and Palestine routinely perform autopsies,so they didn't actually steal the organs and they had to glue the eyes shut so that the relatives wouldn't know when corneas had been removed. Which is more or less what you are saying.

I am not asking for a pound of flesh, just a little humility for the victims.

Remember there is still the problem of investigating the sale of organs.
  #395  
Old 23.12.2009, 00:49
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

[quote=Pashosh;650619]I never said it was ok to collect organs without permission- and I agree with the current Israeli law which requires either signing a donor card or family permission.

Israeli - Arab conflict: I think it's time to think out of the box.
So far the pattern was: Israel gives land, dismantles villages & town and gets an improved cease fire agreement. These agreemenst have so far were not a great success as real peace, but prevented (delayed?) wars. Arab assumed time is on their side and Israel will continue to make concessions.

Maybe Israel should do the following:

1. Open up the west bank settlements for Arabs. maybe even topple Hamas and re-build settlemnets in Gaza. this would encourage real co-operation at local level (schools, workplaces, health system).

You mean ; Israel return occupied land ,dismantles illegal build villages &town

Last edited by cannut; 23.12.2009 at 01:41.
  #396  
Old 23.12.2009, 14:20
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

No more ad hominens, please, folks. It'd be nice to have a discussion and not a pointless mud slinging thread. As in pointless-thread-now-closed kinda pointless. There's plenty to discuss...

Cheers.
  #397  
Old 23.12.2009, 14:39
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I am actually very gloomy for the prospect of peace in the region. Israel is in a similar position to the United States when it comes to occupying the lands of a vanquished people, it has very little incentive to give anything up. Terrorism? tried and failed in the case of the Palestinians, and besides there haven't been any major terror attacks by Palestinians groups in years and yet the peace process is still as dead as a dodo. However taking Israeli soldiers hostage has paid dividends; Simply the release of a video of Gilad Shalit holding a newspaper was enough to secure the release of scores of Palestinian prisoners, and upon his eventual release many hundreds more will be tasting freedom.

Anyway with a gutless UN and unconditional support from the US, Israel has little reason to adjust its position. The only thing they really want from the Palestinians is a so called final settlement document which relinquishes all further claims to Palestinian lands and return of refugees, but for that to happen they need a negotiating partner that is broadly representative of all the Palestinian people. Barak came close with Arafat some years back, but his derisory offer of land pot-marked with ilegal settlements and criss-crossed by secure roads would have earned Arafat a bullet throught the head for treachery.

Oh well, Happy Holidays
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Old 23.12.2009, 15:32
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

You could solve the Jewish settlement of Palestinian territories by putting them on Northern Rock mortgages. They’d soon send the Geordie bailliffs round

Lifted from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/t...noughties.html
  #399  
Old 23.12.2009, 23:24
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Compare this:
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...
there haven't been any major terror attacks by Palestinians groups in years..
to this:

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... I'm not quite ready to visit Israel yet. Perhaps once the situation in the region improves.


Merry xmas & happy new year (none of that "Happy Holidays" PC cr@p)
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Old 25.12.2009, 03:47
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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the pattern was: Israel gives land,
"gives land" ? No, Israel took + takes land. It in just one major case returned taken land

Israel should
- at least stop permanently the building of new settlements
- recognize that East Jerusalem is the Capital of Palestine
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