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Old 17.02.2010, 00:13
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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So Egypt (same presidnet for 28 years, son likely to succeed father), Lebanon (not a soverign country) & Jordan (A monarchy) are democracies ?




These "peaces" last until the dictators have second thoughts, any LASTING peace is only between democracies.



Yes, Baby Doc is a reliable partner in a universe where Egypt is a democracy. His father was the only Syrian leader to die in his bed in the last 50 years. Not so sure the son will manage it as well.
Do you have a Irish passport,in that chase,I guess not
  #462  
Old 17.02.2010, 01:42
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Which way does the donkey kick? Enough people have been arrested to satisfy the media, the 'alleged' have spirited away and Mossad have not been ruled out (neither has Mick Hucknell); job done in everyone's eyes. Is anyone going to miss this thug?
What a waste of tax payer's money - surely this terrorist could have been killed more cheaply, his organs harvested during business hours by less people. such a waste.
  #463  
Old 18.02.2010, 00:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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If it is so great for Palestinians in Lebanon, why are they still forced to live in total poverty in camps like Shatila without sewer? Why aren't they allowed to get Lebanese citizenship and integrate the community?
A) many of the Palestinians in Lebanon are integrated. There for example is the nice Restaurant Shatila in Ras Beirut across from the Hotel Méditerranée which is Palestinian owned. MEA for many years (until his retirement had a Palestinian as its CEO
B) Many of those "camps" in South Beirut have developed in an amazing way, with good shops, commercial centres, restaurants and so on. Parts of Shatila even are quite elegant. I in 05 by error drove into Shatila, and was pleasantly surprised and decided to take a coffee break there
C) The Lebanese citizenship of Palestinians in Lebanon is a double power struggle. Why ? A) Any Palestinians who become a Lebanese citizenship no longer can claim a legal right for return to Palestine B) b-1) the Amal Party and the fundamentalist Hizbullah (both Shi'ite) plus the various Maronite parties are opposed to Palestinians getting Lebanese citizenship as their becoming Lebanese would or rather does and will strenthen the weight of the Sunni Muslims and the Greek Orthodox in the country. Prime Minister Hariri now in power is quite determined to get as many Palestinians into Lebanese citizenship as possible as this (in conjunction with the Socialist Mourabitoun militia -- part now of the Lebanese armed forces) will improve the power base of the Hariri Clan. But of course, as he commands a coalition including the Amal and Hizbullah and the Lebanese Forces of General Aoun and the Maronite anti-Syrian Gemayal clan and the Maronite pro-Syrian Frangiyeh clan, he has to tread carefully. It is Levantine politics, also known as Byzantine politics
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  #464  
Old 18.02.2010, 00:14
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Regardless of the inaccurate origination of the word, anti-semitism, as currently used, generally refers to anti-Jewish ideas, attitudes and activities.

You can't get at the meaning of a word by picking it apart logically.

On the other hand I do take your point about it looking a bit odd in reference to regional conflict.
back to Europe, many Arabs in France needed fairly long to realize that true French "anti-Semites" not just hate Jews but Arabs alike ! The one who explained this to his fellow Arab/French folks was Zinedine Zidane, in his campaign in favour of Jacques Chirac against Jean-Marie LePen . In realization of this, the Supreme Rabbi of Paris forged an alliance between the French Jews and the ArabFrench/FrenchArab for practical purposes. And so did Mr Bubis, the chairman of the Jews in Germany when he and some Turkish-German leaders realized that they had common enemies inside Germany. "Anti-Semitism" unfortunately DOES exist. But to use the word in the Middle East simply is rubbish.
  #465  
Old 18.02.2010, 00:27
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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So Egypt (same presidnet for 28 years, son likely to succeed father), Lebanon (not a soverign country) & Jordan (A monarchy) are democracies ?
-
> Egypt has a democratically elected president, and Mr Mubarak won the last elections again which were accepted by international observers as being democratic.
> Lebanon is a fully sovereign country. Foreign influence ? Also Switzerland and Luxemburg and other small countries have to accept some "foreign influence"
> Jordan is a monarchy, but the elected parliament has considerable influence onto daily politics



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These "peaces" last until the dictators have second thoughts, any LASTING peace is only between democracies.
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The world is full of "lasting peace arrangements" which were done by dictators


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Yes, Baby Doc is a reliable partner in a universe where Egypt is a democracy. His father was the only Syrian leader to die in his bed in the last 50 years. Not so sure the son will manage it as well.
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It is the success of the Assad Clan to have brought Syria some stability. And the "Children's-Doctor-of-Hell" (Tabib el Atfal ash-Sheïtan), known under his legal name Nureddin el-Attassi needed to be "taken off duty" as he possibly was worth than Hussein al-Takriti. Dr Bashar al-Assad has brought many liberalisations to Syria in his years in office. And so is liked by most. He within a few years has grown into a master tactician, for example by his successful way to clean the relations with Turkey and bring these relations to a good standard.
  #466  
Old 18.02.2010, 08:56
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I still find it incomprehensible that Israel could betray 6 of its owns citizens (British Israelis).. if Israelis can't trust their State, who can?

UK calls in Israeli ambassador as Dubai killing row escalates
Relations in Tel Aviv now in 'deep freeze', say British officials

Julian Borger

The Guardian, Thursday 18 February 2010

Britain last night fired the first shot in a potentially explosive diplomatic row with Israel by calling in the country's ambassador to explain the use of faked British passports by a hit squad who targeted a Hamas official in Dubai.
The Israeli ambassador has been summoned to the Foreign Office to "share information" about the assassins' use of identities stolen from six British citizens living in Israel, as part of the meticulously orchestrated assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.
Britain has stopped short of accusing Israel of involvement, but to signal its displeasure, the Foreign Office ignored an Israeli plea to keep the summons secret. "Relations were in the freezer before this. They are in the deep freeze now," an official told the Guardian.
Gordon Brown yesterday launched an investigation into the use of the fake passports, which will be led by the Serious Organised Crime Agency (Soca). The British embassy in Tel Aviv is also contacting the British nationals affected in the plot, "and stands ready to provide them with the support that they need", the Foreign Office said in a statement last night.
"The British passport is an important part of being British and we have to make sure everything is done to protect it," Brown told LBC Radio yesterday.

Full story
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  #467  
Old 18.02.2010, 09:38
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Must remember that dodge next time my identity is discovered: "Hey, some spy took my passport and assassinated someone, it wasn't me, nobody saw me, you can't prove anything!" Bart Simpson would be proud.
  #468  
Old 26.02.2010, 15:43
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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A visiting scholar at Harvard’s Weatherhead Center for International Affairs has recently come under fire for making comments earlier this month advocating cuts in certain subsistence aid to Palestinians in order to curb extremism.
http://theharvardcrimson.com/article...-palestinians/
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  #469  
Old 26.02.2010, 16:12
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I suspect the Israelis cannot be too happy about this one....
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152592.html

Coupled with this recent article, deeply worrying for Lebanon.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8477251.stm

Last edited by saraTG; 26.02.2010 at 16:22. Reason: added more info.
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  #470  
Old 27.02.2010, 02:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Listen to the heroes of Israel

The moral courage of Israeli dissidents.

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Since Israel's onslaught on Lebanon in 2006, its devastation of Gaza in 2008-2009, and Mossad's recent political murder in Dubai, the criminality of the Israeli state has been impossible to disguise. On 11 February, the influential Reut Institute in Tel Aviv reported to the Israeli cabinet, which it advises, that violence had failed to achieve Israel's ends and had produced worldwide revulsion instead.
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“In America last year, a Palestinian and I spoke five times a day in front of thousands. There is a big shift in American public opinion, and that's where the hope lies. It's only pressure from outside Israel - from Jews especially - that will end this nightmare. People in the west must know that while there is a silence, this looking away, this profane abuse of Israel's critics as anti-Jew, they are no different from those who stood aside during the days of the Holocaust."
This seems to me to be a concerned citizens movement, much like the mothers of those killed in Northern Ireland, that could really sway opinion and have an affect on the peace process. Let's hope that Jews in the UK and Australia are listening.

http://www.newstatesman.com/internat...ael-rami-nurit
  #471  
Old 14.03.2010, 00:17
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

A quick guide to world news:
What you probably read in the news -
Israel declared it's intention to build 1600 flats in a settlement.

look deeper -
the settlement is actualy a neighbourhood of Jerusalem called "Ramat Shlomo". Officially it's outside the 1967 ceasefire line but in fact - it's an organic part of Jersualem - life moves on, regardless of old documents. It's a rather dreary neighbourhood populated by religious jews with large families. these families need a place to live - hence the building plans.

The minister who allowed this building plan, Eli Yishai, is a member of Shas. A large party representing Religious jews. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that he didn't know he was authorizing building in "a settlement", he probably tried to do a favour to some building contractor...

Last edited by Pashosh; 14.03.2010 at 00:18. Reason: spelling
  #472  
Old 18.03.2010, 22:48
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

The last few day were interesting: for the first time in many years, Israel was faced with a less than friendly U.S administration.

Whether this trend will continue or not is too early to tell, but one thing is clear: The middle east rules did not change - when one side seems to be weak, the other side attacks or at least is less willing to negotiate. Switzerland is experiencing the same with Libya.

So far Arabs organized a "day of rage", named a square after a terrorist, and fired rockets into Israel, killing 1.

So much for the common wisdom that pressuring Israel will lead to peace.
  #473  
Old 28.04.2010, 00:22
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European jewish call for reason

An initiative rare enough to draw my attention. The initiative of european jews to call Israel for a change in its policy. The link to the call is here.
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  #474  
Old 28.04.2010, 01:02
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Re: European jewish call for reason

I find this to be an excellent idea, I very much hope this will lead to a lasting peace.
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Old 28.04.2010, 01:06
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I very much hope this will lead to a lasting peace.
Unfortunately, there will never be peace in the Middle East until the state of Israel is utterly destroyed and its Jewish citizens forced to live elsewhere in the world (or murdered, depending upon the degree of lunacy exhibited by its opponents).

... and since that's unlikely to happen any time in the near future, don't hold your breath...

Anyone fancy a pint?
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  #476  
Old 28.04.2010, 08:28
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Unfortunately, there will never be peace in the Middle East until the state of Israel is utterly destroyed and its Jewish citizens forced to live elsewhere in the world (or murdered, depending upon the degree of lunacy exhibited by its opponents).

... and since that's unlikely to happen any time in the near future, don't hold your breath...

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Although I disagree, I wonder why you see the hypothetical destruction of israel as a prerequesite for peace and not the hypothetical destruction or murdering of palestinians?
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Old 28.04.2010, 08:49
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Unfortunately, there will never be peace in the Middle East until the state of Israel is utterly destroyed and its Jewish citizens forced to live elsewhere in the world (or murdered, depending upon the degree of lunacy exhibited by its opponents).

... and since that's unlikely to happen any time in the near future, don't hold your breath...

Anyone fancy a pint?
I cannot see there ever being peace in the Middle East.
The Jews and Muslims will never give; it is not in their nature to compromise and they will always hate each other.
The Muslims will get more extreme as they get more powerful.
USA is becoming weaker in the world as China gets stronger. The influence of the USA on the world will therefore weaken in the coming years. With Jews in the major political positions in the USA, their power in the world will be seriously diminished.

The only way you would get the Jews and Muslims to compromise would be if we had a Christian Crusade and invaded the Middle East and Israel and perhaps they would then get together to defend themselves but even that is doubtful

What about the Greeks selling one of their islands to help pay their debts to the Jews as the new Israel?
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  #478  
Old 28.04.2010, 09:07
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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An initiative rare enough to draw my attention. The initiative of european jews to call Israel for a change in its policy. The link to the call is here.
It's not that rare. There are, and always have been, Israeli Jews, and non-Israeli Jews who oppose the policies of the Israeli government. It's just the majority in Israel support the policies - it is a democratic country after all.

MrVertigo makes a valid point. However genocide of the Palestinians won't make peace. It has to be the complete elimination or subjugation of the Arab world - both Christian and Muslim - and of Islam. The Arabs generally hate Israel because of the injustices their fellow Arabs have received at the hands of the country. Standard teaching of Islam is that Allah allowed the creation of Israel because he was angry with Muslims not behaving according to his laws, and only the complete destruction of Israel will make him happy again.

There are a few initiatives in Israel by some groups, who take young Jews and Arabs into the desert for camps. This does bring understanding and reconciliation. So there is hope.
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  #479  
Old 28.04.2010, 09:20
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Everyone seem to forget that it already happened in History that Jews, Muslims and Christians lived together peacefully more than 500years during the andalusian time in the middle age. This is a proof that it's possible.

Every journey begins with a small step, and big changes can only arise when people start changing their mindset, when every single person starts to change. That's why I see this change among european jews who provided unconditional support to Israel as a first sign.
I don't think peace will happen tomorrow or the next month, but it will happen because everyone is fedup seeing wombs transformed into tombs, because everyone wants to see their children growing up in peace.
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Old 28.04.2010, 09:28
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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..... Standard teaching of Islam is that Allah allowed the creation of Israel because he was angry with Muslims not behaving according to his laws, and only the complete destruction of Israel will make him happy again.....
Sorry but this is a big misconception. There is nothing like that in Standard teaching of Islam..nowhere! And there is no single muslim imam or cheikh who can tell or explain why God is doing/allowing something. I challenge you to bring a valid reference of something like that.
The standard opinion of belief of the arab street is that it happened because of the guilt felt by europeans after WWII and the corruption, ignorance and despotism of the arabic leaders.
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