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Old 28.04.2010, 13:37
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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And your point is?
That I'm not going to get started.
I wasn't trying to get you "started" on anything.

"Colonisation" and historical ownership of Palestine was being brought up by others and I was saying that it isn't relevant. (I've come across too many Zionist apologists who use historical ownership as an excuse for what goes on, in some cases going right back to the Bible!)

I then mentioned the glaring double-standard that the West applies to Israel.

Genuinely, what's to discuss?

Last edited by Carlos R; 29.04.2010 at 11:45. Reason: missing "on"
  #502  
Old 28.04.2010, 13:42
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Scribble, i did not get your point. Can you elaborate?
My point was that your Andalusia example was not a good one as it was occupied land similar to how Muslims class Israel as occupied Muslim land. Orthodox religions living together in peace is an oxymoron. When a religion in a given area comes to power then other religions put up with it and keep quiet till the time is right. Then people like you turn it upside down and make it out to be some kind of shining example of coexistence

If people were truly interested in peace then for starters they would cleanse themselves of them vs us pre historic barbaric ideas like religion. If all these religions were so compatible with each other then there would not have been so many different religions in the first place. Religion as contained in religious books are not compatible with each other.

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Whomever "owned" or occupied Palestine before the Palestinians is somewhat irrelevant and a red herring.
So is where Palestinians lived 60 years ago Bottom line is that Israel ain't going anywhere. Two independently countries should be created based on current boundaries. Jerusalem should be bombed and flattened to teach all religions a lesson for being such arrogant MOFOs. Then it should be made a no go area as permanent lesson to religious nut cases.

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Sigh!

This is not about Jews against Muslim, It is about Israel against Palestine.

If you say so It's all about religion and any person who has functioning brain cells would know that. I will preempt any one saying that it's all politics by saying that politics and religion are two sides of the same coin.
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  #503  
Old 28.04.2010, 13:51
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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(or murdered, depending upon the degree of lunacy exhibited by its opponents).
I'm trying to figure out whether or not you have invoked Godwin.
  #504  
Old 28.04.2010, 13:51
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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What did Andalucia and the Levant have in common when they were both at peace?

Oh yes... that was it... the Muslims were top dog and got to call the shots, whether the indigenous Jews and Christians of those regions liked it or not...

Context, context, context.

Now where's the brake in this train, anyway?
I will give you just 2 examples to show you another point of view:

- Golden Age of Jewish culture during the Andalusian time. This can only happen in times of peace, freedom and respect.

- From Haaretz: Mohamed V protector of moroccan jews against deportation by french to nazi camps.
  #505  
Old 28.04.2010, 13:56
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Do you think only the muslim in Palestine are against the colonisation of their land? Again, someone who mixed countries, populations, culture and religion in being Muslim!
Islam is by its nature an expansionist and colonialist religion. Therefore Muslim objection to colonialsim isn't very credible in my eyes. Obviously it's okay for us but forbidden for others.
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Old 28.04.2010, 14:02
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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you know that this is far far far from truth.... do you really think Israel would economically and military survive without the help of the US? The US are deeply involved in the process, does not make sense to keep them out.
I am sure that I read somewhere that there were more Jews in New York than there were in Israel.

I am surprised how powerful and howmuch influence on the world the Jews seem to have when you realise that there are only 16 Million Jews in the world compared to 2.1 Billion Christians and 1.6 Billion Muslims and 1.2 Billion Hindues
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups .

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Old 28.04.2010, 14:02
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I'm trying to figure out whether or not you have invoked Godwin.
No. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

HTH

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So is where Palestinians lived 60 years ago Bottom line is that Israel ain't going anywhere.
Fair enough. Agreed. I just don't like it when people use "historical" ownership to justify why Israel is (or should be) there.

Last edited by Carlos R; 28.04.2010 at 14:07. Reason: merged posts
  #508  
Old 28.04.2010, 14:09
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I will give you just 2 examples to show you another point of view:

POV
POV is what it is all about Muslims look at that period romantically. Locals on the other hand who I have personally spoken to think otherwise. Few years back I visited some historical graves where locals died fighting the Moors. So yes it's all about POV

Muslims see honey, local Christians see poison and I as heathen see facts. Fact was that Islam came to Iberia by force and was eventually driven out by force. Why do you think that happened if they had allegedly so much local support?
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Old 28.04.2010, 14:17
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Re: European jewish call for reason

So DB - see how much influence Israel has over the general public
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Old 28.04.2010, 14:27
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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POV is what it is all about Muslims look at that period romantically. Locals on the other hand who I have personally spoken to think otherwise. Few years back I visited some historical graves where locals died fighting the Moors. So yes it's all about POV

Muslims see honey, local Christians see poison and I as heathen see facts. Fact was that Islam came to Iberia by force and was eventually driven out by force. Why do you think that happened if they had allegedly so much local support?
scribble you are very strong...you met and talked to locals who lived there in the 15th-16th century and from the grave they told you all this! And they said that the Inquisition was great much better than the moorish time. I prefer to read the books of different historians to forge my opinion and not talk with some local hobo
  #511  
Old 28.04.2010, 14:31
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Re: European jewish call for reason

I would love to give -for free- a chunk of my country to Israel so that they can call it New Jerusalem or whatever. It would bring some prosperity and jobs to my peop.
  #512  
Old 28.04.2010, 14:38
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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you know that this is far far far from truth.... do you really think Israel would economically and military survive without the help of the US? The US are deeply involved in the process, does not make sense to keep them out.
What's not true ?

btw - Israel survived & thrived before U.S help.
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  #513  
Old 28.04.2010, 14:44
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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and the British (because they were instrumental in allowing Israel to happen) stood back and encouraged the formation of the state of Israel to the direct detriment of Palestinians.
Of course! Its Britains fault! Glaringly obvious all along now you think about it. Mind you, it's not what is used to be you know, they still think they rule the world since the crusades - I mean lets not forget the crusades after all. And India, they screwed that right up, didn't they ?

Last edited by Mikers; 28.04.2010 at 14:45. Reason: emphasis
  #514  
Old 28.04.2010, 14:45
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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What's not true ?

btw - Israel survived & thrived before U.S help.
Israel without doubt would not last long if it was not for the Jews in the rest of the world (mainly Jews of New York - USA).
Population of Israel 7 Million; Arab Population 300 Million plus and Pakistan and other Muslim populated countries would support the Arabs.
  #515  
Old 28.04.2010, 14:52
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Of course! Its Britains fault! Glaringly obvious all along now you think about it. Mind you, it's not what is used to be you know, they still think they rule the world since the crusades - I mean lets not forget the crusades after all. And India, they screwed that right up, didn't they ?
of course not...it's the jews and arabs fault.
But I'd say that the brits screwed every single colony they had under their control and exploitation.
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Old 28.04.2010, 14:54
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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of course not...it's the jews and arabs fault.
But I'd say that the brits screwed every single colony they had under their control and exploitation.
Really ? I think they did a marvelous job all round. In fact, if they were still in charge today there wouldnt be any of this conflict we see now. Things would be sensible, ordered and under control, and no matter where in the world you were, people would form orderely queues for things and not the kind of school bus riots you see on the continent.

Land Of Hope And Glory.
  #517  
Old 28.04.2010, 14:58
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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of course not...it's the jews and arabs fault.
But I'd say that the brits screwed every single colony they had under their control and exploitation.
Sure - Australia, Canada & New Zealand are abysmal failures.

This thread is like Cantine food - repetitive & not appetizing. Tchuss mitenand.
  #518  
Old 28.04.2010, 14:59
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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scribble you are very strong...you met and talked to locals who lived there in the 15th-16th century and from the grave they told you all this! And they said that the Inquisition was great much better than the moorish time. I prefer to read the books of different historians to forge my opinion and not talk with some local hobo
Yes you are right. The graves and statues dedicated to soldiers and kings who fought the Moors were figment of some local hobo's imagination It's like American soldiers teaching Iraq's history to Iraqis Btw you know books are written by humans too and depending on who the writer is the POV changes dramatically.

To conclude from my side anyway as we are wondering off topic. Moors were invading expansionist force in Iberia irrespective of the good or bad that might have occurred during their rule. Just like US are invading force in Iraq irrespective of how many schools or science departments they build there in next 1000 years.
  #519  
Old 28.04.2010, 15:01
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Sure - Australia, Canada & New Zealand are abysmal failures.

This thread is like Cantine food - repetitive & not appetizing. Tchuss mitenand.
Actually, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the Queen is still head of State for these Commonwealth Countries, therefore the UK hasn't quite pulled out yet
  #520  
Old 28.04.2010, 15:02
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Re: European jewish call for reason

European Jewry seem to be, in the spirit of being human, acting in their own self-interest. If the "Call" is truly representative of European Jews then this shows once again, that the nature of the conflict is indeed a national one, and not civlisational or religious. Special interest groups globally focus the conflict according to their own interest, usually religious, sometimes economic, but the one thing that strikes me is how the "worried parties" exacerbate this otherwise small and insignifant conflict beyond all proportion. The US, Hamas, Iran, Europe, the Jewish diaspora all interact with eachother on an artificially large stage to put fuel on the fire, making this conflict far more important, violent and long than it otherwise would be. Put another way, there will be peace when the region's oil runs out, but probably not before. And perhaps that isn't a bad thing. Peace isn't something that comes along too often and when it does usually takes the form of a shakey balance of power that upturns all too easily. A stable, constant conflict is to me, prefarable to a short lived and unpredictable peace. Unless you're a Wilson fan and then you'll prefer this quote

There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized peace
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