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  #521  
Old 28.04.2010, 15:06
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Put another way, there will be peace when the region's religions runs out, but probably not before.
Fixed that for you The conflict pre dates car and oil
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Old 28.04.2010, 15:07
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Of course! Its Britains fault! Glaringly obvious all along now you think about it. Mind you, it's not what is used to be you know, they still think they rule the world since the crusades - I mean lets not forget the crusades after all. And India, they screwed that right up, didn't they ?
Sorry, but Britain actively encouraged it:

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated 2 November 1917) was a formal statement of policy by the British government stating that
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

(Source Wikipedia)

They succeeded in establishing the home, opening the floodgates to Jewish settlers, but failed miserably in avoiding "prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities."

They could have nipped the whole thing in the bud, but chose not to.

(And before you think I am anti-British, I am British myself)
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  #523  
Old 28.04.2010, 15:29
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Sorry, but Britain actively encouraged it:

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated 2 November 1917) was a formal statement of policy by the British government stating that
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

(Source Wikipedia)

They succeeded in establishing the home, opening the floodgates to Jewish settlers, but failed miserably in avoiding "prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities."

They could have nipped the whole thing in the bud, but chose not to.

(And before you think I am anti-British, I am British myself)
I'm not so good at history myself I'm a bit more simple. So is the fact that israel and its neighbours bomb the living daylights out of one another britains fault or not ?
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Old 28.04.2010, 15:30
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I'm not so good at history myself I'm a bit more simple. So is the fact that israel and its neighbours bomb the living daylights out of one another britains fault or not ?
Yes and no.

HTH
  #525  
Old 28.04.2010, 15:42
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Yeah but it ain't what it used to be. There's an argument that the conflict in it's current form doesn't even predate CNN. Causation's a tricky bastard.
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Fixed that for you The conflict pre dates car and oil
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Old 28.04.2010, 16:07
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Re: European jewish call for reason

When Britain pulled out of the empire, it invented partition. The idea was that the natives would be so busy fighting among themselves, they wouldn't be a threat to us. Hence Israel, Cyprus, Northern Ireland, India/Pakistan.
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Old 28.04.2010, 16:17
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I will give you just 2 examples to show you another point of view:
Yes, yes, yes, I'm aware of the tolerance Islamic powers have shown to other religions (mainly so they could tax them to buggery and not have to worry about governing them in too much detail). I'm fully aware of the invitation to the Spanish Jews offered by Bayezid II, and the stupidity of the new Spanish nation in letting them go.

But my point still stands: in all the examples you have provided so far, plus plenty more that I can provide, the Muslims were top dog. It was Muslims who held the power, with the local Jews and Christians living under their rule, whether they liked it or not.

When kafirs have the power, on the other hand, Muslims don't tend to like it very much.

Hence the invitation to "Kill the Jews" issued by the Mufti of Jerusalem way back in the 1920s, long before Israel existed. Hence the tedious wittering of "al-Qaeda" and the other Islamists who don't like the fact that they don't control half of Europe any more. Hence the constant demands to have Agia Sofia turned into a mosque.

As I said before: Context, context, context.

Nobody is nice and tolerant just for the fun of it. There's always something going on in the background.
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Old 28.04.2010, 16:20
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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When Britain pulled out of the empire, it invented partition. The idea was that the natives would be so busy fighting among themselves, they wouldn't be a threat to us. Hence Israel, Cyprus, Northern Ireland, India/Pakistan.
Hmmm... I don't know enough about Ireland and Pakistan to comment, but to describe the situation in Cyprus and Israel as a simple case of 'divide and rule' is a teensy bit simplistic...

After all, it takes two to tango, even if the British government is playing the violin...

EDIT: I can't believe I forgot to mention that in both cases cited above, it was the Ottoman Empire that had first implemented 'divide and rule' with their millet system of governance.

I've had a long week...

Last edited by Dougal's Breakfast; 28.04.2010 at 16:31.
  #529  
Old 28.04.2010, 16:46
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Re: European jewish call for reason

You can't 100% blame Britain if locals allow themselves to be stirred
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Old 28.04.2010, 16:49
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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When Britain pulled out of the empire, it invented partition. The idea was that the natives would be so busy fighting among themselves, they wouldn't be a threat to us. Hence Israel, Cyprus, Northern Ireland, India/Pakistan.
By that logic, Muslims did the same. They pulled out of Spain and now the Basques are blowing up the Castillians. They lost their grip on Israel and now we have unending conflict there. When Turkey got secularised the Armenians got slaughtered. Let's not mention the Balkans.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:13
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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But my point still stands: in all the examples you have provided so far, plus plenty more that I can provide, the Muslims were top dog. It was Muslims who held the power, with the local Jews and Christians living under their rule, whether they liked it or not.
Although Pashosh disagrees with me, I still think the fairest solution would be a secular state ruled by UN mandate until such time that a representative government can be established. Maybe something similar to Lebanon's tri-partite Muslim, Christian, Druze constitution. Sure they'll still fight like kittens in a basket, but at least it will be a more equal fight.
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  #532  
Old 28.04.2010, 17:15
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Fair schmair. You can't make Israel give up that much power with nothing in return. I think a UN mandate over Jerusalem with independent Gaza and West Bank is more likely.
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Although Pashosh disagrees with me, I still think the fairest solution would be a secular state ruled by UN mandate until such time that a representative government can be established. Maybe something similar to Lebanon's tri-partite Muslim, Christian, Druze constitution. Sure they'll still fight like kittens in a basket, but at least it will be a more equal fight.
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  #533  
Old 28.04.2010, 17:20
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Re: European jewish call for reason

The petition has only 2000 something active supporters. This thread alone had 650 views. So it is really small, even the Swiss green party managed to collect 150k signatures for banning largern cars (the SUV initiative thing). You should not overrate that effort, as possitive as it might be.
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  #534  
Old 28.04.2010, 17:20
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Can't really comment on the whole conflict..

Just thought if you are interested in Jcall, the J Street thing could be of interest too..http://www.jstreet.org/about/about-us

It's aim, as I understand it, is to promote a two-state solution and to be a platform for more liberal or progressive (US terminology) Jewish people in the US... There are of course more initiatives in Israel itself, like bringing kids from both sides together, as someone mentioned earlier.

happy arguing
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  #535  
Old 28.04.2010, 17:23
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Although Pashosh disagrees with me, I still think the fairest solution would be a secular state ruled by UN mandate until such time that a representative government can be established. Maybe something similar to Lebanon's tri-partite Muslim, Christian, Druze constitution. Sure they'll still fight like kittens in a basket, but at least it will be a more equal fight.
Sounds like a good idea - but is it possible - or morally justified - to dissolve an existing sovereign nation?

And given what happened when the UN were in charge of Srebrenica, for example, why should the population of Israel have any reason to trust that their security would be assured in such a state?

Israel is, and is likely to remain, Israeli for a very long time. The people of Israel have shown the world many times that they are determined to stay there against whatever their neighbours might throw at them. I can't see them ever agreeing to give up willingly what they've struggled so hard to achieve.

The focus, really, needs to be on Israel's Arab neighbours, and their ridiculous and cruel policy of maintaining the Arabs of Palestine as pawns in their nationalistic games.

If they'd allowed the refugees from Palestine to settle and become citizens of their countries back in the forties, and had not tried (and failed) to destroy Israel in the sixties, the Levant would be a much more peaceful and safe place today.

The solution - if there is one - lies outside Israel, but not in a drab building in New York.
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  #536  
Old 28.04.2010, 17:30
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Although Pashosh disagrees with me, I still think the fairest solution would be a secular state ruled by UN mandate until such time that a representative government can be established. Maybe something similar to Lebanon's tri-partite Muslim, Christian, Druze constitution. Sure they'll still fight like kittens in a basket, but at least it will be a more equal fight.
Israeli democracy works very well so something like Lebanon would be a downgrade.

A fair solution is a two state solution and not a single state solution which will drown the Jews with huge numbers and ultimately be suicidal for them.
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  #537  
Old 28.04.2010, 17:34
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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The solution - if there is one - lies outside Israel, but not in a drab building in New York.
Nor Tony Blair as an ambassador for the Middle East after his little Iraqi fiasco.
  #538  
Old 28.04.2010, 17:36
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Sounds like a good idea - but is it possible - or morally justified - to dissolve an existing sovereign nation?

And given what happened when the UN were in charge of Srebrenica, for example, why should the population of Israel have any reason to trust that their security would be assured in such a state?

Israel is, and is likely to remain, Israeli for a very long time. The people of Israel have shown the world many times that they are determined to stay there against whatever their neighbours might throw at them. I can't see them ever agreeing to give up willingly what they've struggled so hard to achieve.

The focus, really, needs to be on Israel's Arab neighbours, and their ridiculous and cruel policy of maintaining the Arabs of Palestine as pawns in their nationalistic games.

If they'd allowed the refugees from Palestine to settle and become citizens of their countries back in the forties, and had not tried (and failed) to destroy Israel in the sixties, the Levant would be a much more peaceful and safe place today.

The solution - if there is one - lies outside Israel, but not in a drab building in New York.
For you all arabs from morocco to iraq are the same people, same culture and you can deport population from one area to another? Let's be serious there is no reason why someone from palestine would feel at home in Egypt, Irak or Morocco. I believe in the attachment of people to the land that witnessed their birth whatever religion they may have.

The same thing that happened to the indians in north america will happen (or already happened) to the palestinians if the world don't act. I have a great respect for the israeli democracy since 2nd category arab citizens were elected at Knesset. The arab countries are just a pool of countries led by dictators working for their own interest. That's the big drama.

PS @DB: for a muslim kafir is atheist; christians/jews are called "people of the Book".
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Last edited by MrVertigo; 28.04.2010 at 17:54. Reason: link to kafir definition
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  #539  
Old 28.04.2010, 17:40
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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The petition has only 2000 something active supporters. This thread alone had 650 views. So it is really small, even the Swiss green party managed to collect 150k signatures for banning largern cars (the SUV initiative thing). You should not overrate that effort, as possitive as it might be.
It's not a matter of numbers...one person is enough to change things. Let's take the example of Rosa Parks, by her individual act she started a whole revolution that lead many many years later to the election of Obama.
It's important to understand that the unconditional support of jews to Israel has always been a taboo. Now some of them speak up. That's the point.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:42
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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PS @DB: for a muslim kafir is atheist; christians/jews are called "people of the Book".
Atheists lowest of the low then according to the book? Jews and Christians might be people of the book but.....

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In Islamic parlance, a kāfir is a word used to describe a person who rejects Islamic faith.
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