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Old 28.04.2010, 16:48
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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For you all arabs from morocco to iraq are the same people, same culture and you can deport population from one area to another? Let's be serious there is no reason why someone from palestine would feel at home in Egypt, Irak or Morocco. I believe in the attachment of people to the land that witnessed their birth whatever religion they may have.
I collect books about the Ottoman Empire from the 19th and early 20th centuries. There are frequent references in these books to the Arabs of Palestine. They are described as Moslems, Mussulmans, Syrians, Arabs, Levantines... yet I have never once, in any of my books, seen a reference to anybody called a "Palestinian" in anything written before the 1940s.

The borders that separate Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Egypt are artificial ones, created by foreigners, without any real regard for the ethnic affiliations of the Arabic speaking inhabitants of that region. To suggest, therefore, that a "Palestinian" is fundamentally different from a "Jordanian" or an "Egyptian", and unable, consequently, to integrate into those nations as an equal citizen with equal rights, rather than remain herded into a squalid reservation for the sake of maintaining an obsolete Arab nationalist claim to the territory that is now Israel (and the occupied territories - lost, it might be observed, fair and square in a war started by the losers), is to maintain a fictional difference that suits nobody but extremists and trouble makers.

The Arabs of Palestine could just have easily been the Arabs of Greater Mesopotamia, the Arabs of the Socialist People's Republic of Levantia, or the Arabs of Post-Osmanlia. There is no reason at all why they shouldn't be allowed to be the Arabs of Jordan, the Arabs of Egypt or the Arabs of Saudi Arabia instead.

Oh, and Morocco isn't anywhere near Israel, and is a whole different kettle of fish, so I'm not sure why you threw that in there.

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PS @DB: for a muslim kafir is atheist; christians/jews are called "people of the Book".
I know what kafir means, and used the term correctly, thank you very much.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:02
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I collect books about the Ottoman Empire from the 19th and early 20th centuries. There are frequent references in these books to the Arabs of Palestine. They are described as Moslems, Mussulmans, Syrians, Arabs, Levantines... yet I have never once, in any of my books, seen a reference to anybody called a "Palestinian" in anything written before the 1940s.

The borders that separate Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Egypt are artificial ones, created by foreigners, without any real regard for the ethnic affiliations of the Arabic speaking inhabitants of that region. To suggest, therefore, that a "Palestinian" is fundamentally different from a "Jordanian" or an "Egyptian", and unable, consequently, to integrate into those nations as an equal citizen with equal rights, rather than remain herded into a squalid reservation for the sake of maintaining an obsolete Arab nationalist claim to the territory that is now Israel (and the occupied territories - lost, it might be observed, fair and square in a war started by the losers), is to maintain a fictional difference that suits nobody but extremists and trouble makers.

The Arabs of Palestine could just have easily been the Arabs of Greater Mesopotamia, the Arabs of the Socialist People's Republic of Levantia, or the Arabs of Post-Osmanlia. There is no reason at all why they shouldn't be allowed to be the Arabs of Jordan, the Arabs of Egypt or the Arabs of Saudi Arabia instead.

Oh, and Morocco isn't anywhere near Israel, and is a whole different kettle of fish, so I'm not sure why you threw that in there.



I know what kafir means, and used the term correctly, thank you very much.
We need a pragmatic solution for now...and now a lebanese, an iraqi, an egyptian, a palestinian are different culture and people. What was true in the 19th century is no longer true today.
The example of Morocco was brought in because it's a usual argument in israel: arab countries are so vast from morocco to irak, they have space to receive all palestinian population.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:12
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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We need a pragmatic solution for now...and now a lebanese, an iraqi, an egyptian, a palestinian are different culture and people.
The Indian refugees from Uganda who arrived in Britain in 1972 were pretty different from the pie-and-chips eating people who received them, yet they've managed to integrate into British society, because they were allowed to.

Anyone in the world is allowed to apply for citizenship of Saudi Arabia. It doesn't matter if you are American, Moroccan, Irish or Pakistani, you are free to apply (whether you get it is a different matter, of course).

A "Palestinian", on the other hand, is forbidden from even applying for citizenship. As I understand it, this rule is in place throughout the Arab League (although I'm quite prepared to be corrected on this matter).

This is a deliberate - and inhumane - policy of exclusion, put in place to ensure that the Arabs of Palestine will always remain victims, a stick with which Arab nationalists might beat the nation of Israel at their convenience, a visible and - to the casual observer born after 1967 - clearly unfair consequence of the existence of the state of Israel.

Perhaps the British should have put the Greek Cypriot refugees into camps after the Turkish invasion in 1974, and left them there, bereft of citizenship, as a symbol of how nasty the Turks are, rather than allowing them to apply for British passports, open chip shops in London and Birmingham and become a part of the wider British community?

Of course the Arabs of Palestine were inconvenienced by the establishment of a Jewish state in their homeland. In that regard, they are no different from the Greek Cypriots of Famagusta and Kyrenia who have lost their homes, businesses and farms to the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

The difference lies in how they were treated by those who received them afterwards.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:18
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Of course the Arabs of Palestine were inconvenienced by the establishment of a Jewish state in their homeland. In that regard, they are no different from the Greek Cypriots of Famagusta who have lost their homes, businesses and farms to the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

The difference lies in how they were treated by those who received them afterwards.
Yes, it is especially inconsistent seeing how Muslims like to hark on about how open Muslim society is and how it doesn't matter one little bit whether you're black, brown, red, blue or white.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:22
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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A "Palestinian", on the other hand, is forbidden from even applying for citizenship. As I understand it, this rule is in place throughout the Arab League (although I'm quite prepared to be corrected on this matter).
Personnaly I have no clue about this point, I can't confirm it or correct it. I know palestinians who have other arabic nationalities acquired by marriage or administrative decision, but the people I know is not statistically a validation.
Most of the palestinians I know don't want to give up their land, they want to resist like many other people in the world resisted agains an invader or enemy. Do they have this right? Or should they as you suggest just give up and apply for citizenship in other countries.
I personnaly doubt that there is a big plan to keep them as victims etc...as I doubt that there is a big plan among the jews, or the christians or the brits etc...The idea of a big scheme or machination doesn't hold.
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  #546  
Old 28.04.2010, 17:29
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Personnaly I have no clue about this point, I can't confirm it or correct it. I know palestinians who have other arabic nationalities acquired by marriage or administrative decision, but the people I know is not statistically a validation.
It is possible that the rule has changed, or that some countries didn't apply it in the first place. But the rule certainly did exist, and does exist.

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Most of the palestinians I know don't want to give up their land, they want to resist like many other people in the world resisted agains an invader or enemy. Do they have this right? Or should they as you suggest just give up and apply for citizenship in other countries.
They can try, if they like, but they're flogging a dead horse. Israel's Arab neighbours tried repeatedly - and failed repeatedly - to restore Palestine to the Arab paradise it apparently was before those pesky Jews rolled in. 62 years and several generations later, is it really worth all the pain? Israel is lost. The occupied territories might be retrieved. But that won't be good enough for Arab nationalists and trouble makers from Indonesia to Morocco who'd like to see all the Jews driven into the sea.

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I personnaly doubt that there is a big plan to keep them as victims etc...as I doubt that there is a big plan among the jews, or the christians or the brits etc...The idea of a big scheme or machination doesn't hold.
All the evidence says that it does. But you are more than welcome to persist in the belief that the Arab world has only pure intentions when it comes to Palestine/Israel.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:31
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Sigh!

This is not about Jews against Muslim, It is about Israel against Palestine.

Do you think only the muslim in Palestine are against the colonisation of their land? Again, someone who mixed countries, populations, culture and religion in being Muslim!

If someone comes to you and kick you out of your house and take it to give it to someone else, do you think it will be fair? Will you care which religion the guy is? No, but you might care of which camp he works for.
Thank you SO much. You beat me to it. Plenty of Palestinians (and Lebanese) are in fact Christians, Druze etc. This is, as you put it, a problem between Palestine and the Israelis (or Zionists to be even more precise). There are even plenty of Israeli Jews who oppose Israel's occupation and even it's existence. There are plenty of Zionists who aren't Jewish! Look at the right-wing evangelical end-timers in the US.

The two-state solution is a joke and was never meant to be a solution for both parties. It was the quickest way to form a Jewish State - something which shouldn't have happened, at least not in Palestine. Israel has made it very clear that it sees Palestine as Israel and that the people living there must leave. Not to mention the rest of Canaan. And even though they are blatantly invading another country, colonizing it and carrying out systematic ethnic cleansing there are people all over the world who have NO IDEA what is going on but who are still willing to talk.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:32
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Personnaly I have no clue about this point, I can't confirm it or correct it. I know palestinians who have other arabic nationalities acquired by marriage or administrative decision, but the people I know is not statistically a validation.
Most of the palestinians I know don't want to give up their land, they want to resist like many other people in the world resisted agains an invader or enemy. Do they have this right? Or should they as you suggest just give up and apply for citizenship in other countries.
I personnaly doubt that there is a big plan to keep them as victims etc...as I doubt that there is a big plan among the jews, or the christians or the brits etc...The idea of a big scheme or machination doesn't hold.
A few points:

Don't "Palestinian people" generally have Jordanian passports and aren't jordanians considered Arabic?

Haven't the Israels expanded there land from the original land given to them as Israel?

Lets face it; none of them want to compromise; forced atheism is surely the solution for both Palestine and Israel.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:36
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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A few points:

Don't "Palestinian people" generally have Jordanian passports and aren't jordanians considered Arabic?

Haven't the Israels expanded there land from the original land given to them as Israel?

Lets face it; none of them want to compromise; forced atheism is surely the solution for both Palestine and Israel.
1) jordanians are arabs.
2)70% of jordanians have palestininan ascend
3) Depends on who you are asking, so the answers are: yes, no, maybe
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:37
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Just a correction - No one can apply for a Saudi Arabian citizenship, not even if you were born there and lived your entire life or even if you marry a local. Unless you are of local origin ofcourse.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:38
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Sure - Australia, Canada & New Zealand are abysmal failures.

This thread is like Cantine food - repetitive & not appetizing. Tchuss mitenand.
Perhaps you forgot who the natives were?- Go talk to the Aboriginies, the Native Americans, the Maori. perhaps they were precivilization-s o they don't count.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:39
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Don't "Palestinian people" generally have Jordanian passports and aren't jordanians considered Arabic? No, in fact many Palestinians live in limbo on Jordanian soil as refugees.

Haven't the Israels expanded there land from the original land given to them as Israel? Yes, they have expanded from the original borders which were already disproportionate.

Lets face it; none of them want to compromise; forced atheism is surely the solution for both Palestine and Israel. Palestine has already compromised too much to the point that they've given up much of the land that the UN considers sovereign Palestine
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:39
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Just a correction - No one can apply for a Saudi Arabian citizenship, not even if you were born there and lived your entire life or even if you marry a local. Unless you are of local origin ofcourse.
Untrue.

It is difficult, but not impossible.

... unless you are Palestinian, of course.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:41
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Perhaps you forgot who the natives were?- Go talk to the Aboriginies, the Native Americans, the Maori. perhaps they were precivilization-s o they don't count.
The Neanderthalers who were the first inhabitants of Europe and large chunks of Asia (including the Middle-East) were wiped out by African immigrants. So maybe we should blame Ghaddafi and Mugabe?
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:41
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Don't "Palestinian people" generally have Jordanian passports and aren't jordanians considered Arabic? No, in fact many Palestinians live in limbo on Jordanian soil as refugees.

Haven't the Israels expanded there land from the original land given to them as Israel? Yes, they have expanded from the original borders which were already disproportionate.

Lets face it; none of them want to compromise; forced atheism is surely the solution for both Palestine and Israel. Palestine has already compromised too much to the point that they've given up much of the land that the UN considers sovereign Palestine
There is no solution then and the best for the rest of the world to turn a blind eye and let them get on with it.
If they go to war; someone will win and there will be more space with a reduction in population.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:44
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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If they go to war; someone will win and there will be more space with a reduction in population.
That's exactly what happened in 1967: Israel's Arab neighbours tried it on, lost, and Israel enjoyed the spoils.

Hence the expansion of Israel to which you referred a couple of posts ago.

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Old 28.04.2010, 17:44
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Untrue.

It is difficult, but not impossible.

... unless you are Palestinian, of course.
I think if you were to put it in context; it would be as easy for you to obtain Swiss Nationality without marrying a Swiss girl than you trying to obtain an Arabic Nationality without even going into skin colour and origination.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:44
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Haven't the Israels expanded there land from the original land given to them as Israel? Yes, they have expanded from the original borders which were already disproportionate.
They occupied those territories in response to an unprovoked war that was started by their Arab neighbours. If you are prepared to start a war, you must be prepared to accept the consequences of defeat.

By the same line of argument you could say that the Polish posession of Silesia is disproportionate. But nobody except a bunch of stupid extremeists argues that way any more.
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:45
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Re: European jewish call for reason

at least I'm glad we had a fair and good exchange in this thread, with sometimes heated arguments but still with respect and tolerance. Personnaly I learned a few things and that's already good for today
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Old 28.04.2010, 17:45
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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There is no solution then and the best for the rest of the world to turn a blind eye and let them get on with it.
If they go to war; someone will win and there will be more space with a reduction in population.
They don't go to war. Israel bombs schools, has incursions.
It's called ethnic cleansing. Full stop.

The solution is Israel ceasing to exist as a state. OR for it to stop colonizing more land.
The palestinians have been extremely flexible but Israel refuses to accept that they aren't the "chosen people" and that they can't have it all.
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