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  #601  
Old 28.04.2010, 19:45
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Re: European jewish call for reason

I was really enjoying the adult exchange here but it's fast going south due to emotionally challenged midgets
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  #602  
Old 28.04.2010, 19:50
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I don't believe in silly concepts like my homeland, my religion, my people, my race...
Ah - you must be from Neasden.
  #603  
Old 28.04.2010, 19:59
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I don't believe in silly concepts like my homeland, my religion, my people, my race.....
So you can have what you want.
Yet you argue in favour of an Israeli homeland and aginst the rights of Palestinians to have the same?
  #604  
Old 28.04.2010, 20:02
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Talk about going tangent
Ah ha! Why can't he go to the party- did you read the link-obviously not. It links directly back to the thing that threatens Zionism most and the original post on this thread. Gee I am going to have to read it to you?

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A great post at Open Shuhada Street does the tick-tock on the Goldstone bar mitzvah story. And absolutely nails the divided political culture of the Jewish community between neoconservative leaders and the burgeoning grassroots.
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/04/goldst...rassroots.html
  #605  
Old 28.04.2010, 20:08
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Yet you argue in favour of an Israeli homeland and aginst the rights of Palestinians to have the same?
Did you read anywhere that I do not support two state solution? Ideally I would like both sides to shut the F up and stop @ss kissing their holy books. If that happens then even one state solution would do but I know better.

Anyway Hoppy your posts do go round in circles based on your history so excuse me while I eat some pasta.
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  #606  
Old 28.04.2010, 20:24
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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What absurd generalization? Did I just say all Americans are fat or something like that?
not directly, but metaphorically speaking you did say all israeli's were fat, which of course they aren't, and you imply that all palastinian people are thin, but there will be some overweight ones I feel sure.
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  #607  
Old 28.04.2010, 22:53
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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So is where Palestinians lived 60 years ago Bottom line is that Israel ain't going anywhere.
Actually, I'd like to change a point - I agree that Israel is going nowhere (voluntarily), but I disagree that what Palestinians had taken away from them 60 years ago is irrelevant. Given that they have been fighting for the same thing on and off, I would suggest it is very relevant.

I would dare you to head off down Shankill Road and make comments about who owned which lands a while back is not relevant... but you might lose your knees.

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The focus, really, needs to be on Israel's Arab neighbours, and their ridiculous and cruel policy of maintaining the Arabs of Palestine as pawns in their nationalistic games.
So you are saying that might is right. Well, I guess that creed kind of works for the Americans, so why not?

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If they'd allowed the refugees from Palestine to settle and become citizens of their countries back in the forties, and had not tried (and failed) to destroy Israel in the sixties, the Levant would be a much more peaceful and safe place today.
Ah, so it is all the Arab's (general term) fault. Nothing to do with the Zionists. Come on, do you really believe that the Zionists have no part to play or responsibility in this mess and that they are innocent bystanders?

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Israel has not colonised any fresh land since 1967. On the contrary, they have withdrawn from quite a few areas.
Aha ha hah aaahhahhaa hhaa haha.



What, you weren't joking?

http://www.btselem.org/English/Settlements/
http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/
http://www.btselem.org/English/Separation_Barrier/

The fact that the Gaza strip is nothing more than a refugee camp controlled by Israel seems to have completely passed you by.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7061617.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2...the_Gaza_Strip


Oh and have a look at these stats: http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Index.asp

They certainly don't cheer up my day.

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On the one hand we have the argument that Palestinans can't go and live in Syrian or Jordan for example because they are a separate nation. And yet countries like Syrian or Jodan felt they had the right to invade Israel because they were defending their people. Strange.
I believe that Muslims view themselves as one large "brotherhood" or "people(s)", so in that sense, yes, they were coming to the defence of their people.

Why should they empty out the remaining parts of Palestine and help the Zionists further? Who says the Palestinians would be willing to go?

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I agree that the initial establishment of Israel was questionable. But in what the Arabs did after that they thoroughly destroyed the moral high ground they think they still have.
At least we agree on something. Although I disagree that two wrongs do make a right. That applies equally to the victimisation of Israelis targeted by the Palestinians. I feel sorry for the individual victims, but I don't feel any sympathy for the State of Israel or Zionism as a concept.

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These guys don't care about what happens to poor Palestinians (if they did they'd let them into their countries and shelter them). No they are using them as a useful tool. They know if they suffer they will hate Israel all the more.
See point above about Palestinians maybe not wanting to leave.

Basically, what I get from reading your (and other's, to be fair) posts is that it is everybody else's fault except the Israelis/Zionists (and for the benefit of MikeB as he is obsessed with this: the British ). They haven't done anything to make life more difficult for the Palestinians. Nope, not at all.

<sigh>
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Last edited by Carlos R; 28.04.2010 at 23:16. Reason: typos and the like
  #608  
Old 28.04.2010, 23:13
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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at least I'm glad we had a fair and good exchange in this thread, with sometimes heated arguments but still with respect and tolerance. Personnaly I learned a few things and that's already good for today
Would like to second that.

It has been an interesting read.

While I am willing to accept that the Palestinians haven't and don't do themselves any favours and that the Arab nations (as a generalisation) haven't covered themselves in glory, I haven't read anything that has persuaded me to change my anti-Zionist position.
  #609  
Old 28.04.2010, 23:37
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

sorry can't find the original quote from Dougal's Breakfast, but it read

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The focus, really, needs to be on Israel's Arab neighbours, and their ridiculous and cruel policy of maintaining the Arabs of Palestine as pawns in their nationalistic games.
I think that is partly true but it the Israelis play games too.

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The reports of the Scud deployment emerged earlier this month in the Kuwaiti newspaper Al Rai and were later confirmed by Israeli sources, although some Western agencies have reservations about the accuracy of the information.
The same Kuwaiti newspaper reported on Sunday that it was US officials who leaked the intelligence in order to "lay the groundwork for a proposal to the UN Security Council, to put together a resolution on the deployment of UN forces along the Syrian-Lebanese border."
Firstly the scuds (even if they exist) are no match for Israel's massive armaments and nuclear arsenal.

However...

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Hezbollah, which is closely allied to both Iran and Syria, has called the reports of the missile deployment a “hoax” designed to trigger another war that could reshape the balance of power in the Middle East,......The situation was further confused when Ahmed Aboul Gheit, Egypt’s Foreign Minister, said during a visit to Beirut that the missile deployment was a “big lie”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7110896.ece

I heard a report on the radio which more or less said that Israel and the US do not want Iran to have a nuclear program- either a civilian program, which would allow Iran to save its oil reserves, or a nuclear weapons program, which would alter the power situation in the Middle East.

Iran uses the rockets in the Lebanon as a counter threat- in case sanctions threaten to strangle Iran. The US is becoming more persuasive in convincing other countries to join the sanctions bandwagen. However countries like France and Germany rely heavily on exports to Iran, they are not so happy to comply, so the nuclear program has been ticking along.

Israel feels threatened so they are ramping it up to get the US to storm Iran. Apparently Syria's message to Gates was find the evidence - the extra rockets are a lie. If Iran gets either a civilian or weapons nuclear program, the government in Israel is in jeopardy. For the Israeli government to cry wolf also keeps the focus off the continued settlements, which contravene international law. The Likud are just self serving and power hungry they want to stay in power even if it hurts their own people, many are guilty of war crimes. And guess what- if they are ever brought to the Hague to may be Jewish lawyers who convict them.

Last edited by hoppy; 28.04.2010 at 23:57.
  #610  
Old 29.04.2010, 00:17
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Re: European jewish call for reason

It's amazing that just by searching for the word "Zionist" in a post, you know exactly what that post will say. I believe they're called Israelis. CarlosR, I'm afraid it's just you and Ahmadinejad now.
  #611  
Old 29.04.2010, 00:41
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Jordan is the only exception. However I'm sure you know the reason why Arab nations don't want to give them citizenship, or indeed why many Palestinians don't wish it either. Quite simply its because by accepting citizenship they weaken their case for a right of return. Israel and the UNHCR/UNWRA has an obligation (respected or not) towards the generations of Palestinians made Stateless post 1948, but an Egyptian with a Palestinian grandfather has effectively given up their claim.
But don't you think individual Palestinians should have the choice to decide whether or not they wish to apply for citizenship in a neighbouring Arab country, rather than having it decided for them, for ideological reasons, by the government of that nation?

Furthermore, given that most Palestinians around today weren't even born when Israel was created, insisting on a right to return to a country which was lost in the time of their fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers is, surely, putting principle before common sense. If they return to their ancestral lands, then what? The olive grove is covered in a housing development, the orange orchard has a factory on it and Grandpa's little stone house is nowhere to be seen.

I know I keep coming back to Northern Cyprus, but as a successor state of the Ottoman Empire, subject to a violent occupation resulting in the death and displacement of much of its indigenous population, there are enough parallels to the Palestine/Israel situation to make it useful for comparison: I was sitting on a plane, returning from Cyprus a few days after the Ledra Street checkpoint had been opened to Cypriots for the first time since 1974, when I got chatting to my neighbour, a Greek Cypriot from North London. The day before her flight, she had returned to her house, which she hadn't seen since she'd been forced to flee with her family 30 years before. When she got there, she found that the house in which she had grown up was occupied by a Turkish family which had come to Cyprus as colonists. She had been horrified to see the home she loved so much in the hands of invaders, outsiders, foreigners. It was, as you can imagine, a deeply emotional moment for her.

The Turkish family invited her inside and offered her tea. She looked around at the walls that were so familiar to her in memory, yet so strange to her in reality, adorned with faded photographs of people she didn't know and framed tapestries of verses from the Koran where before had been icons of the saints. As she sat in the kitchen, looking around her, she came to realise that the house was no longer hers, and could never be hers ever again. She knew that she couldn't erase thirty years of history, even if the United Nations were to insist that the occupiers had to leave and return her property to her.

One can never go back. Palestine is lost forever. Reparations may be possible, but the land and property will never be returned.

Until that sad fact is acknowledged, there can never be peace there.
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  #612  
Old 29.04.2010, 00:46
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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It's amazing that just by searching for the word "Zionist" in a post, you know exactly what that post will say. I believe they're called Israelis. CarlosR, I'm afraid it's just you and Ahmadinejad now.
So you didn't know that Goldstone is a Zionist? It's a confusing term
  #613  
Old 29.04.2010, 00:58
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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......
One can never go back. Palestine is lost forever. Reparations may be possible, but the land and property will never be returned.

Until that sad fact is acknowledged, there can never be peace there.
It's exactly what french, british, belgian and others said in the beginning of the 20th century before they were kicked out of the colonies. Who thought in the 60's or 80's that apartheid in SA and racial segregation in the US would collapse and disappear. Who thought in the 80's that USSR would collapse? Believe me, there is nothing stronger than human's will for freedom.
What is 50 or 100 years in history of a nation...nothing.
  #614  
Old 29.04.2010, 01:03
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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But don't you think individual Palestinians should have the choice to decide whether or not they wish to apply for citizenship in a neighbouring Arab country, rather than having it decided for them, for ideological reasons, by the government of that nation?
Nigerians would like to apply for citizenship in Switzerland, they are mostly Christians- just like the Palestinians and Arabs are mostly Muslims- so why doesn't Switzerland take them, I mean come on same religion same thing huh?



Quote:
Furthermore, given that most Palestinians around today weren't even born when Israel was created, insisting on a right to return to a country which was lost in the time of their fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers is, surely, putting principle before common sense. If they return to their ancestral lands, then what? The olive grove is covered in a housing development, the orange orchard has a factory on it and Grandpa's little stone house is nowhere to be seen.
It is not lost, they never gave it up it was stolen, why are you trying to get us to accept the concept of it being irretrievably lost? It sounds to me like accept it, you lose Palestine get over it, now let's move on.

Quote:
I know I keep coming back to Northern Cyprus, but as a successor state of the Ottoman Empire, subject to a violent occupation resulting in the death and displacement of much of its indigenous population, there are enough parallels to the Palestine/Israel situation to make it useful for comparison: I was sitting on a plane, returning from Cyprus a few days after the Ledra Street checkpoint had been opened to Cypriots for the first time since 1974, when I got chatting to my neighbour, a Greek Cypriot from North London. The day before her flight, she had returned to her house, which she hadn't seen since she'd been forced to flee with her family 30 years before. When she got there, she found that the house in which she had grown up was occupied by a Turkish family which had come to Cyprus as colonists. She had been horrified to see the home she loved so much in the hands of invaders, outsiders, foreigners. It was, as you can imagine, a deeply emotional moment for her.

The Turkish family invited her inside and offered her tea. She looked around at the walls that were so familiar to her in memory, yet so strange to her in reality, adorned with faded photographs of people she didn't know and framed tapestries of verses from the Koran where before had been icons of the saints. As she sat in the kitchen, looking around her, she came to realise that the house was no longer hers, and could never be hers ever again. She knew that she couldn't erase thirty years of history, even if the United Nations were to insist that the occupiers had to leave and return her property to her.
So one evil deed deserves another in return- what goes around comes around? When will this cycle of abuse end- when perpetrators are punished in a court of law.

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One can never go back. Palestine is lost forever. Reparations may be possible, but the land and property will never be returned.

Until that sad fact is acknowledged, there can never be peace there.
So there is real peace in Cyprus read this:

Quote:
Of the world's responses to Israeli aggression, Turkish and Greek officials have been among the most severe. Their common outrage may indicate a deeper basis for rethinking Turkish-Greek relations on a wide variety of issues. The natural sympathy for Muslim victims by Turkey has been matched by a natural Greek sympathy for oppressed minorities. We believe, however, there is more to the similarity of Turkish and Greek responses to Israeli aggression than sympathy for Palestinians.Both Turks and Greeks have had long histories and profound influence in the Arab Middle East. The center of the Hellenistic world was the Middle East, extending from Byzantium to Alexandria, from the Aegean islands and the Cedars of Lebanon to Iran and Central Asia. More recently, the Ottoman Turks ruled the region and beyond for 500 years. While Ottoman rule of the Greeks has been a source of resentment, it, nonetheless, provided multiple points of interpenetration of language, culture and practices, especially of ordinary people. Of course, many differences persist, especially religious, which sometimes help to continue animosity that may otherwise have receded from memory.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/de...ay&link=164596
  #615  
Old 29.04.2010, 01:05
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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It's exactly what french, british, belgian and others said in the beginning of the 20th century before they were kicked out of the colonies.
Hmmm... shall we ask the Australian aborigines or the American Indians what their chances of getting their homelands back are?





Israel isn't a colony like India, with a few thousand administrators precariously perched over a seething mass of angry natives. It is a nation built on an ideal by a desperate people who have defended their right to a homeland with terrifying success again and again, against overwhelming odds.

Whether you agree with the existence of Israel or not, you can't deny the Israelis' overwhelming will to keep their nation intact.

That's more than could ever be said for the gin sipping residents of Simla.

Last edited by Dougal's Breakfast; 29.04.2010 at 07:06.
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Old 29.04.2010, 01:23
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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It's exactly what french, british, belgian and others said in the beginning of the 20th century before they were kicked out of the colonies. Who thought in the 60's or 80's that apartheid in SA and racial segregation in the US would collapse and disappear. Who thought in the 80's that USSR would collapse? Believe me, there is nothing stronger than human's will for freedom.
What is 50 or 100 years in history of a nation...nothing.
Vertigo your comparisons are way off. Who would have thought concept can be applied to anything. Who would have thought Native Americans would be wiped out? Who would have thought that The Arab attack on Israel would fail so dramatically? Who would have thought this who would have though that

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Believe me, there is nothing stronger than human's will for freedom.
Which is why Israel will always exist Question is do Palestinians want similar better future for their kids or just continue to be pawns of their neighbours and rigid religious ideology?

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What is 50 or 100 years in history of a nation...nothing.
A lot! Some countries of the world are not even 70 years old. Put it this way in 50 years I would be most likely dead. Do I really care what happens on planet Earth after that? I don't even care too much right now about this world
  #617  
Old 29.04.2010, 01:26
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Greece may give Israel the airspace for attacks denied them by Turkey- Greece and Israel have a long history.

AN OUTLINE OF GREEK-ISRAELI STRATEGIC RELATIONS

http://www.rieas.gr/index.php?option...d=17&Itemid=74
  #618  
Old 29.04.2010, 01:29
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Greece may give Israel the airspace for attacks denied them by Turkey- Greece and Israel have a long history.

AN OUTLINE OF GREEK-ISRAELI STRATEGIC RELATIONS
... and this is relevant to this thread because...?
  #619  
Old 29.04.2010, 02:00
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Biblical times, I detect a faint hint of Christian interpretation?
Do you know of any interpretation of world history that says nobody conquered Palestine prior to 1948. Hey, if you don't like Bibilical sources, look at the Ottomans who conquered and ruled Palestine for centuries. The British then blew up their railway lines and took Palestine as a protectorate until Israel declared independence. Is that a Christian interpretation? Of course Hoppy knows it must be as nobody conquered Palestine before the evil Zionists came onto the scene.
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Old 29.04.2010, 02:09
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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... and this is relevant to this thread because...?
Well let me think, Ooh tough question- Why are strategic alliances and Greek airspace important when war threatens when they can't get Turkish airspace. Hm.... gee, gosh, why should these be important-Duh- you got me there DB
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