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Old 29.04.2010, 02:14
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Do you know of any interpretation of world history that says nobody conquered Palestine prior to 1948. Hey, if you don't like Bibilical sources, look at the Ottomans who conquered and ruled Palestine for centuries. The British then blew up their railway lines and took Palestine as a protectorate until Israel declared independence. Is that a Christian interpretation? Of course Hoppy knows it must be as nobody conquered Palestine before the evil Zionists came onto the scene.
Suppose I am an atheist- don't believe in the bible don't believe that Moses parted the waves or that there was an ark or that a peice of land belonged to the Jews and that thier fathers promised it to their children reminds me of this:

  #622  
Old 29.04.2010, 02:20
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Do you know of any interpretation of world history that says nobody conquered Palestine prior to 1948. Hey, if you don't like Bibilical sources, look at the Ottomans who conquered and ruled Palestine for centuries. The British then blew up their railway lines and took Palestine as a protectorate until Israel declared independence. Is that a Christian interpretation? Of course Hoppy knows it must be as nobody conquered Palestine before the evil Zionists came onto the scene.
I just know what my dad told me-he was there he went AWOL don't think that he blew up any train lines. he loved the Palestine and Lebanon. He was dismayed at how such a beautiful country was destroyed told me about the snow on the cedars and the wonderful people.
  #623  
Old 29.04.2010, 02:25
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I just know what my dad told me-he was there he went AWOL don't think that he blew up any train lines. he loved the Palestine and Lebanon. He was dismayed at how such a beautiful country was destroyed told me about the snow on the cedars and the wonderful people.
It is amazing how you can go around in circles.

Even as an atheist, it might have occurred to you that the story of Lawrence of Arabia is not actually taken from the bible so I don't see what not being a Christian has to do with not believing it.
  #624  
Old 29.04.2010, 02:36
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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It is amazing how you can go around in circles.

Even as an atheist, it might have occurred to you that the story of Lawrence of Arabia is not actually taken from the bible so I don't see what not being a Christian has to do with not believing it.
Huh? Lawrence of Arabia was in biblical times?

Well, there is some historical fact to some stuff in the bible- this for instance is I think backed up by Cyrus's cylinder,

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Cyrus the Great figures in the
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Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) as the patron and deliverer of the Jews. He is mentioned twenty-three times by name and alluded to several times more. [1] From these statements it appears that Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, was the monarch under whom the captivity of the Jews ended, for in the first year of his reign he was prompted by God to make a decree that the temple in Jerusalem should be rebuilt and that such Jews as cared to might return to their land for this purpose. Moreover, he showed his interest in the project by sending back with them the sacred vessels which had been taken from the temple and a considerable sum of money to buy building materials with.

But thier land does not mean theirs alone, I don't believe that God came down and said " this land belongs to the Jews-just the Jews and no-one else" Nope, I don't believe that nor can I find any evidence t support it.
  #625  
Old 29.04.2010, 07:08
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Well let me think, Ooh tough question- Why are strategic alliances and Greek airspace important when war threatens when they can't get Turkish airspace. Hm.... gee, gosh, why should these be important-Duh- you got me there DB
Whatever.

This was an interesting thread until you and Soul Food showed up.

Never mind... that's just the internet, isn't it?
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  #626  
Old 29.04.2010, 07:20
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Re: European jewish call for reason

I've got some devastating facts that would totally destroy your arguments, stored on my Organiser. I've decided against it, as you'd wouldn't even look at them with an objective eye - you'd just dismiss me as a psionist.
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Old 29.04.2010, 07:31
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Suppose I am an atheist.........usual Hoppy special
Yeah right and let us suppose that I am Ayatollah Khomeini
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Old 29.04.2010, 08:42
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Hmmm... shall we ask the Australian aborigines or the American Indians what their chances of getting their homelands back are?
Most Israelis would be delighted by that comparison given its finality however its simply not true. The subjugation of the aborigines and Native Indians took place a lot further back in time where neither community had the means of defending themselves against heavily armed, sophisticated European settlers. There was no visibility of their suffering and no International Community around to give a damn.

The Palestinian situation is much more similar to South African Apartheid, and ultimately it was the glaring injustices which eventually brought about change. I'm not saying that Israelis will lose their homeland, but they may be forced into making heavy sacrifices for the sake of their continued existence.

The Indians and Aborigines were conveniently erased from the pages of history, but that's not going to happen with the Palestinian cause, not with 9.6m of them still alive and struggling for their rights.
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Old 29.04.2010, 09:02
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Re: European jewish call for reason

I'm not convinced. Even if the Israelis addressed all injustices, torn down the wall, ensured full, equal rights, they'd still be under regular terrorist attack, because certain groups don't want the injustices addressed, they want the total oblitoration of Israel as a nation state.
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  #630  
Old 29.04.2010, 09:09
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I'm not saying that Israelis will lose their homeland, but they may be forced into making heavy sacrifices for the sake of their continued existence.
Forced by whom?

And what's in it for the Israelis, given that there are plenty of people out there for whom the only acceptable solution is the complete annihilation of Israel?
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Old 29.04.2010, 09:10
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I'm not convinced. Even if the Israelis addressed all injustices, torn down the wall, ensured full, equal rights, they'd still be under regular terrorist attack, because certain groups don't want the injustices addressed, they want the total oblitoration of Israel as a nation state.
You'd be surprised..

Haniyeh: Hamas willing to accept Palestinian state with 1967 borders
By Amira Hass, Haaretz Correspondent and News Agencies

The Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, said on Saturday his government was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

Source
  #632  
Old 29.04.2010, 09:13
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Forced by whom?
By America??
I'm not going to read too much into Obama's latest spat with Netanyahu but there are at least signs that US support of Israel may no longer be unconditional.
  #633  
Old 29.04.2010, 09:13
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Most Israelis would be delighted by that comparison given its finality however its simply not true. The subjugation of the aborigines and Native Indians took place a lot further back in time where neither community had the means of defending themselves against heavily armed, sophisticated European settlers. There was no visibility of their suffering and no International Community around to give a damn.

The Palestinian situation is much more similar to South African Apartheid, and ultimately it was the glaring injustices which eventually brought about change. I'm not saying that Israelis will lose their homeland, but they may be forced into making heavy sacrifices for the sake of their continued existence.

The Indians and Aborigines were conveniently erased from the pages of history, but that's not going to happen with the Palestinian cause, not with 9.6m of them still alive and struggling for their rights.
We can add as observation that Aborigines, native indians (both in North and South) were facing for the first time in their history an external invader that's probably why they were lacking strategies and techniques to strike back. That's not the case in the middle-east a hub for all invaders since humans settled there.
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  #634  
Old 29.04.2010, 09:14
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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You'd be surprised..

Haniyeh: Hamas willing to accept Palestinian state with 1967 borders
By Amira Hass, Haaretz Correspondent and News Agencies

The Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, said on Saturday his government was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

Source
That's somewhat ambiguous - what does he mean by "a Palestinian state with 1967 borders" exactly?
  #635  
Old 29.04.2010, 09:18
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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By America??
Israel did quite alright without American support before 1967.

And the rest of the developed world isn't likely to give up on Israel completely (despite all the noisy protests and UN resolutions), because the existence of a 'Europeanish' state in the region is really quite convenient for them.
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Old 29.04.2010, 09:26
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Israel did quite alright without American support before 1967.

And the rest of the developed world isn't likely to give up on Israel completely (despite all the noisy protests and UN resolutions), because the existence of a 'Europeanish' state in the region is really quite convenient for them.
They did alright because they had the support of UK and France (which by the way provided all the nuclear technology through the Sevres agreement); actually the support of the US started in 1956 with the Suez crisis...that's when it switched from UK/France to US. It's widely accepted by historians that 1956 is the end of europes influence on the region and the settlement of US as a superpower of the region.
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Old 29.04.2010, 09:31
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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And the rest of the developed world isn't likely to give up on Israel completely (despite all the noisy protests and UN resolutions), because the existence of a 'Europeanish' state in the region is really quite convenient for them.
A lot of the Gulf countries have opened up (Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Qatar, Bahrain etc..) giving them more than an adequate foothold in the region.
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Old 29.04.2010, 10:40
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Israel did quite alright without American support before 1967.

And the rest of the developed world isn't likely to give up on Israel completely (despite all the noisy protests and UN resolutions), because the existence of a 'Europeanish' state in the region is really quite convenient for them.
I have noticed in recent years that I'm doing a lot more work with companies that are based in Israel - especially those involved with technical innovation.

I can certainly believe that Hamas, over time, may come to (or may have already) repudiate their call for the complete anihilation of Israel. Other groups have done similar as they've changed over the years - having political power seems to be habit forming. But there always seem to be another group of nutters ready to rally to the cause.

Of course, Hamas could agree to 1967 borders. Then when it's implemented, relaunch their terror attacks until they achieve their original design. Salami tactics. Slice by slice.
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  #639  
Old 29.04.2010, 11:00
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Salami tactics. Slice by slice.
Wrong region. It's known as Pastrami/Bastourma tactics there.
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Old 29.04.2010, 11:31
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Of course, Hamas could agree to 1967 borders. Then when it's implemented, relaunch their terror attacks until they achieve their original design. Salami tactics. Slice by slice.
Injustice, poverty, desperation etc.. are what feeds HAMAS. A succesful, thriving and free Palestinian State will no longer be a recruiting Sergant for acts of terror. Of course there will always be far right splinter groups claiming the greater prize of 100% historic Palestine, but then how are these any different to voices in Israel calling for Eretz Israel (Israel comprising the Palestinian territories, Lebanon and large parts of Syria, Jordan and Egypt)?
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