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Old 29.04.2010, 10:41
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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It's amazing that just by searching for the word "Zionist" in a post, you know exactly what that post will say. I believe they're called Israelis. CarlosR, I'm afraid it's just you and Ahmadinejad now.
Yes, and?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

I guess it is used by people who as a principle object to the State of Israel. So fully relevant to use the term IMO.
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Old 29.04.2010, 10:50
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Actually I will be going in a couple of months, I expect to see lots of British people, the BNP say that they expect to do well in the election- so much for acceptance.
The BNP comparison is very useful in this context. The BNP is still very much on the margin of UK politics and not likely to come to power any time soon. That is no reason not to be vigilant or not to take the threat seriously, but there have been extremist parties in the past (Mosley, the NF etc) and all of these grew rapidly but then ran out of steam at some point and faded back to insignificance. So let's not overstate the threat that the current BNP poses. On the other hand, many Arabic countries and Islamic countries are actually ruled by parties whose ideologies are very similar to those of the BNP. So for any supporter of the Palestine cause to intoduce the BNP as an argument against Britain is really shooting themself in the foot I' afraid.
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Old 29.04.2010, 15:52
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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The BNP comparison is very useful in this context. The BNP is still very much on the margin of UK politics and not likely to come to power any time soon. That is no reason not to be vigilant or not to take the threat seriously, but there have been extremist parties in the past (Mosley, the NF etc) and all of these grew rapidly but then ran out of steam at some point and faded back to insignificance. So let's not overstate the threat that the current BNP poses. On the other hand, many Arabic countries and Islamic countries are actually ruled by parties whose ideologies are very similar to those of the BNP. So for any supporter of the Palestine cause to intoduce the BNP as an argument against Britain is really shooting themself in the foot I' afraid.
Yes and sometimes these groups are promoted by superpowers, which thencomes back to bite them the butt- remember who took the Taliban and the Wahhabi's and perhaps now something similar in Yemen. What about Israeli's training Kurds and Baluchis? Who paid Muqtada al Sadr's forces in iraq? What is now happening in Lebanon, who kept flew Khomeinie to Iran after the fall of the Shah?

During the Cold war and even now it continues-religion of the masses or another the threat of another superpower filling the void? Often the superpowers prefer the former.

Who got rid of Mossadegh (the democratically elected non- religious leader) in Iran. Who stopped Iran from having a democracy because they had to maintain control of the oil?

Ahamadinejad has applied for a US visa and the US is about to exempt China and Russia from any sanctions in trading with Iran

Of course it is always easier to see the world in black versus white, Muslims versus Christians,Goodies versus Baddies, Cowboys versus Indians

Yee ha mentality
  #644  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:00
economisto
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

I'm well aware of the definition. And how irrelevant definitions often are. And yes, it's used by exactly those people to refer to a group of people who no longer exist. Why do you object in principle to the existence of the State of Israel?

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Yes, and?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

I guess it is used by people who as a principle object to the State of Israel. So fully relevant to use the term IMO.
  #645  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:04
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I'm well aware of the definition. And how irrelevant definitions often are. And yes, it's used by exactly those people to refer to a group of people who no longer exist. Why do you object in principle to the existence of the State of Israel?
I think Carlos R wrote: object to State of Israel and not object to the existence of State of Israel.
you can disagree with the policy of a state without requiring it to disappear.
  #646  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:07
economisto
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

They mean the same thing, unless action objected to is specified or implied.
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I think Carlos R wrote: object to State of Israel and not object to the existence of State of Israel.
  #647  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:07
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I'm well aware of the definition. And how irrelevant definitions often are. And yes, it's used by exactly those people to refer to a group of people who no longer exist. Why do you object in principle to the existence of the State of Israel?
I find Zionism quite confusing at times, some Zionists I agree with, some I don't. Some say that Zionism has been hijacked.


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The Zionist movement was created by Theodor Herzl in 1897, however the history of Zionism can be seen as beginning earlier and related to Judaism and Jewish history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism

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Originally, Ahad HaAm saw problems in Judaism and sought out ways to revitalize the religious community and the religion itself to regenerate interest in Judaism's adherents, especially its youth. He saw nationalism as a way to reconnect Jews to Judaism, putting forth ideas of creating settlements in Eretz Yisrael (Palestine) filled with well-versed Hebrew-speakers and a core adherence to Judaism. He saw the land of Israel and the Hebrew language as integral parts of the Jewish national heritage, and not necessarily of religious significance.
He viewed Theodor Herzl, an Austrian-Jewish journalist who was a proponent of political Zionism as naive to suggest creating a Jewish state in any other area of the world. Neither did Ahad HaAm trust other countries to help realize the Zionist goal of creating a Jewish state in Palestine, nor anywhere else for that matter. Ahad HaAm emphasized "Jewish self-reliance" over any other precept, as well as careful planning in infrastructure and construction of a Jewish footing in the Holy Land.
Ahad HaAm recognized that the effort to achieve independence in the land of Israel would bring Jews into conflict with the native Arab population, as well as with the Ottomans and European colonial powers then eying the country. Instead, he proposed that the emphasis of the Zionist movement shift to efforts to revive the Hebrew language and create a new culture, free from negative diaspora influences, that would unite Jews and serve as a common denominator between diverse Jewish communities. The main goal of Ahad HaAm's cultural Zionism was the establishment of a new spiritual center for the Jewish nation, which did not necessarily require the establishment of a Jewish state, but did require the establishment of a Jewish majority in its national home.[1]
The idea took hold in adherents to the school of political Zionism and became a main focus of the World Zionist Organization following its sixth congress in 1903. Following Herzl's death, Ahad HaAm became the main leader of the WZO along with Chaim Weizmann, who easily energized the Zionist movement with ideas for a regeneration of the Hebrew language, establishment of Jewish settlements in Palestine, and resurrecting nationalism with Jews in the Jewish Diaspora.
Sometimes you just really need to talk to a Jew to learn about Judaism and Zionism

Last edited by hoppy; 29.04.2010 at 16:20.
  #648  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:10
economisto
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Zionism and Judaism are quite separate. Many Jews are not Zionists. Also the definition of Zionism varies, though not being a Zionist does not imply an objection to the existence of the State of Israel.


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I find Zionism quite confusing at times, some Zionists I agree with, some I don't. Some say that Zionism has been hijacked.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism

Sometimes you just really need to talk to a Jew to learn about Judaism and Zionism
  #649  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:33
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Zionism and Judaism are quite separate. Many Jews are not Zionists. Also the definition of Zionism varies, though not being a Zionist does not imply an objection to the existence of the State of Israel.
I am well aware of that but most think that Zionism= Likud, I have to catch myself before I assume that and try to remember what my Jewish friends have taught me. there is a difference between cultural Zionism (the origin) and political zionism ( Theodore Herzl whom many wrongly claim to be the father of Zionism)
  #650  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:42
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Yes and sometimes these groups are promoted by superpowers, which thencomes back to bite them the butt- remember who took the Taliban and the Wahhabi's and perhaps now something similar in Yemen. What about Israeli's training Kurds and Baluchis? Who paid Muqtada al Sadr's forces in iraq? What is now happening in Lebanon, who kept flew Khomeinie to Iran after the fall of the Shah?

During the Cold war and even now it continues-religion of the masses or another the threat of another superpower filling the void? Often the superpowers prefer the former.
Okay, so the bad Western superpowers are supporting the mad Muslim dictators who are supporting the Palestinian suicide bombers. Does this contradict your previous statement that the Americans are unilaterally supporting Israel against these mad dictatorships?

Or maybe it's just easier to admit that there is no conspiracy but that it's all one big F*** up.
  #651  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:46
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Injustice, poverty, desperation etc.. are what feeds HAMAS.
You forgot religious ideology in there
  #652  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:47
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I'm well aware of the definition. And how irrelevant definitions often are. And yes, it's used by exactly those people to refer to a group of people who no longer exist. Why do you object in principle to the existence of the State of Israel?
Zionism (to me) started out as the desire for a homeland for the Jewish people(s). That homeland is now Israel. That definition has now changed to be in support of the State of Israel. To be a Zionist is therefore to support the State of Israel, almost (but I admit not quite/necessarily) exclusively. Although Jews who object to the State of Israel are a minority.

In this context, I find the term highly relevant.

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I think Carlos R wrote: object to State of Israel and not object to the existence of State of Israel.
you can disagree with the policy of a state without requiring it to disappear.
You are right, but I don't agree with the existence of the State of Israel on principle. It was founded through shady deals, better organisation and greater determination of the Jews (vs. the rest of the world who were too frightened to say no to a people that had been so badly perscuted in WWII, and vs. the palestinians who were to slow to react and not as well organised). Sure, kudos to them for seizing the moment, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

What they have done since then, with so little real recrimination from the "world's powers", to my mind, beggars belief.

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Zionism and Judaism are quite separate. Many Jews are not Zionists. Also the definition of Zionism varies, though not being a Zionist does not imply an objection to the existence of the State of Israel.
Fully agree that the two are separate. But, they are intertwined and I wouldn't say that many Jews are not Zionists, simply by default of supporting the State of Israel. See my coment above.

I can't think of anywhere else they would go for a starter (i.e. Jerusalem).
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  #653  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:54
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Okay, so the bad Western superpowers are supporting the mad Muslim dictators who are supporting the Palestinian suicide bombers. Does this contradict your previous statement that the Americans are unilaterally supporting Israel against these mad dictatorships?

Or maybe it's just easier to admit that there is no conspiracy but that it's all one big F*** up.
Did i say that the US was unilaterally supporting Israel- sometimes they support Israel and sometimes they don't, of course Netanyahu would prefer constant unilateral support. Obama is influenced by JStreet not so much AIPAC.


Hope this doesn't cause offence, the third clip (Towelies intervention) made me laugh

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_556542.html
  #654  
Old 29.04.2010, 16:59
economisto
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Well, the Jews in the 1940 were without homeland, and Transjordan was largely unoccupied apart from a few stragglers. So a land without a nation was made available for a nation without a land. Don't see what the problem is. The self-proclaimed "Palestinians" (great they found a name for their national construct so late in the game) are just whiny terrorists much like their brothers in arms to the North, East and South.
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Old 29.04.2010, 17:01
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Zionism (to me) started out as the desire for a homeland for the Jewish people(s). That homeland is now Israel. That definition has now changed to be in support of the State of Israel. To be a Zionist is therefore to support the State of Israel, almost (but I admit not quite/necessarily) exclusively. Although Jews who object to the State of Israel are a minority.

But there are different ways of support the State of Israel. You can support and approve of everything it does but you can also support it in principle (ie, support its right to exist) but still be critical of the implementation.

For example, I am pro-British because I like the UK, but that doesn't mean I approve of everything the present government does. Likewise I can be pro-American but musn't necessarily like everything Obama does. So why shouldn't it be possible to be pro-Israeli without supporting all of Netanyahu's policies?
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Old 29.04.2010, 17:04
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Well, the Jews in the 1940 were without homeland, and Transjordan was largely unoccupied apart from a few stragglers. So a land without a nation was made available for a nation without a land. Don't see what the problem is. The self-proclaimed "Palestinians" (great they found a name for their national construct so late in the game) are just whiny terrorists much like their brothers in arms to the North, East and South.
do you feel better after writing such a post?
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Old 29.04.2010, 17:05
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Well, the Jews in the 1940 were without homeland, and Transjordan was largely unoccupied apart from a few stragglers. So a land without a nation was made available for a nation without a land. Don't see what the problem is. The self-proclaimed "Palestinians" (great they found a name for their national construct so late in the game) are just whiny terrorists much like their brothers in arms to the North, East and South.
AKA whiny terrorists...



Over 2000 palestinian children imprisoned- contravenes international law
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Old 29.04.2010, 17:11
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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But there are different ways of support the State of Israel. You can support and approve of everything it does but you can also support it in principle (ie, support its right to exist) but still be critical of the implementation.
Of course, but likewise, one doesn't have to support it either. I don't. I am anti-Zionist (as alread explained) when that Zionism leads to Israel. They've been without lands/country since the Roman diaspora... they saw an opportunity and took it.

But I guess, I'm in a minority here, and as I said earlier, clearly "might is right" and the land is theirs by conquest. So I accept there's little I can do about it... apart from moan here

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Well, the Jews in the 1940 were without homeland, and Transjordan was largely unoccupied apart from a few stragglers. So a land without a nation was made available for a nation without a land. Don't see what the problem is. The self-proclaimed "Palestinians" (great they found a name for their national construct so late in the game) are just whiny terrorists much like their brothers in arms to the North, East and South.
That logic doesn't work and you know it. Large parts of Scotland are unoccupied, heck, large parts of the Russia, the US and Canada are also unoccupied - why don't we just send them there? C'mon, you can do better than that Economisto.
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  #659  
Old 29.04.2010, 17:11
hoppy
 
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Re: European jewish call for reason

BBC documentary on Palestinian children imprisoned. Could you imagine if Israeli children had the same lives? Aren't all children the same?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMb1Y...eature=related

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Old 29.04.2010, 17:16
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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That logic doesn't work and you know it. Large parts of Scotland are unoccupied, heck, large parts of the Russia, the US and Canada are also unoccupied - why don't we just send them there? C'mon, you can do better than that Economisto.
the allied and soviets splitted germany and each part got its share. Why didn't they give some part of it to the jews...after all it's the german who started and did all this mess.
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