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  #681  
Old 29.04.2010, 21:32
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I think the question you're asking is, with nowhere else to send them, would I send starving, persecuted Kurdish children to an unoccupied part of Scotland? The answer is Yes.
You cruel man. I remember you posting how terrible the food is in Scotland.

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...what about those rich Arabs from Qatar, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere who would also like to see the Israelis annihilated and their land returned to 'Palestinian' rule?
That would be
1) they are rich (now) and don't want to rock the boat
2) the nuclear deterent

Question: If push came to shove and the "Arab" nations decided to actually unify and do something about Israel with a real effort (i.e. open all out war), who do you think the Americans would support or what would they do?

It is a genuine question, as the Arab lands have the oil but the Israels have the political power...

Thoughts?
  #682  
Old 29.04.2010, 21:38
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Question: If push came to shove and the "Arab" nations decided to actually unify and do something about Israel with a real effort (i.e. open all out war), who do you think the Americans would support or what would they do?

It is a genuine question, as the Arab lands have the oil but the Israels have the political power...

Thoughts?
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  #683  
Old 29.04.2010, 21:41
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Interesting quote (from your link):
General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
Aren't mad dogs best put down?
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  #684  
Old 29.04.2010, 21:43
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Question: If push came to shove and the "Arab" nations decided to actually unify and do something about Israel with a real effort (i.e. open all out war)
What? Again? After getting thrashed all those other times?

They wouldn't dare!
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  #685  
Old 29.04.2010, 21:44
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Interesting quote (from your link):
General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
Aren't mad dogs best put down?
Yes mad dogs surrounded by mad dogs should all be put down including the mad neighbouring dogs

Edit- Or they can continue fighting and arguing about who is more mad for next 1000 years.

Last edited by scribble; 29.04.2010 at 21:59. Reason: Getting the flow right
  #686  
Old 29.04.2010, 22:12
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Re: European jewish call for reason

To have such a skewed view of the world you simply must have a vested interest. Care to disclose?

Israel is a mad dog because Dayan said it is. Palestinians are mad dogs because common sense tells us they are (no, not all of them)


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Interesting quote (from your link):
General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
Aren't mad dogs best put down?
  #687  
Old 29.04.2010, 22:17
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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To have such a skewed view of the world you simply must have a vested interest. Care to disclose?

Israel is a mad dog because Dayan said it is. Palestinians are mad dogs because common sense tells us they are (no, not all of them)
Hey! A groan for quoting an Israeli General (4th Chief of Staff of the Israel Defense Forces, 1953–1958), saying that the best form of defence was to be the mad dog.

I was just pointing out the irony that mad dogs are usually put down.

And no, I don't have a vested interest. I've answered all your questions (to me) with reasoned replies, so don't quite see what you're in a huff about TBH.
  #688  
Old 29.04.2010, 22:21
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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... but what about those rich Arabs from Qatar, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere who would also like to see the Israelis annihilated and their land returned to 'Palestinian' rule?
I know a Coptic Christian (i.e. Egyptian) who holds that opinion too.
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  #689  
Old 29.04.2010, 22:27
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Re: European jewish call for reason

I also know Rabbi Weiss from Neturei Karta who wants Israel to disappear.
Everyone knows someone who is for or against something...don't we?
  #690  
Old 29.04.2010, 22:45
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Everyone knows someone who is for or against something...don't we?
True, but the ones who want to destroy Israel tend to be more serious in their intent than those who want to rid the roads of touring caravans...
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  #691  
Old 29.04.2010, 22:55
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Re: European jewish call for reason

You found one quote somewhere in the annals of history that fitted a metaphor that suited you and quoted it. That's a cheap shot.

It seems you've come down so squarely on the side of the Palestinians that you can't possibly have reached that conclusion from an unbiased standpoint. In real life there are no absolutes.

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Hey! A groan for quoting an Israeli General (4th Chief of Staff of the Israel Defense Forces, 1953–1958), saying that the best form of defence was to be the mad dog.

I was just pointing out the irony that mad dogs are usually put down.

And no, I don't have a vested interest. I've answered all your questions (to me) with reasoned replies, so don't quite see what you're in a huff about TBH.
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  #692  
Old 29.04.2010, 23:16
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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You found one quote somewhere in the annals of history that fitted a metaphor that suited you and quoted it. That's a cheap shot.
Indeed, you are entitled to your opinion... however wrong.

I found a quote in a link that was supplied in the discussions, that I read with interest (the whole page). You read too much into it. I just found the irony amusing that such a provocative quote would come from someone in charge of Israel's defence - nothing more nothing less.

I'm not into cheap shots.

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It seems you've come down so squarely on the side of the Palestinians that you can't possibly have reached that conclusion from an unbiased standpoint. In real life there are no absolutes.
I've come "down on the side of the Palestinians", as you put it, because I believe that Israel should never have been allowed to be created in the first place. Why do you struggle with that concept?

So now, just because I disagree with your position on Israel (and the Zionists) I am biased. Right... We'll that's clear, glad we got that out in the open. Nice argumentation there. Classy.

I'll add that I didn't always believe this. At one point I even felt that Israel was hard done by. But as I got older I found out more information for myself that the well-oiled Israeli propaganda machine (squarely aimed at the West) like to gloss over.

I've also never excused or tried to justify the terrorism of Palestinians in this or other discussions (as far as I know).

It doesn't take away from the fact that I still believe Israel shouldn't be there. There are no absolutes to finding a solution. There is an absolute in the cause of the problem IMO: ask yourself this - would that area be in the mess it is now if Israel was not there?

One could also reasonably argue that there would be less animosity towards the West & America if Israel was not there - but that's a whole other can of worms.
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  #693  
Old 29.04.2010, 23:25
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I believe that Israel should never have been allowed to be created in the first place.
What about Greece? Turkey? Kosova? Northern Cyprus? These nations were also created out of the chaos of the decline of the Ottoman Empire by the murder and expulsion of much of the existing populations in order to create modern states on the principles of (a greater or lesser degree of) ethnic purity.

Should they have been allowed to be created?

Yet there they are - a Greekless Turkey, a Slavless Greece, a Serbless Kosova - and you rarely hear any objections to their existence, at least not from western Europeans.

What makes the Jewish homeland so different from those other 'national homelands', other than the fact that their 'cleansing' process hasn't been quite so efficient?
  #694  
Old 29.04.2010, 23:28
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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I've come "down on the side of the Palestinians", as you put it, because I believe that Israel should never have been allowed to be created in the first place. Why do you struggle with that concept?
Because your argument would have been best made 62 years ago. Today it couldn't be less relevant.

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It doesn't take away from the fact that I still believe Israel shouldn't be there. There are no absolutes to finding a solution. There is an absolute in the cause of the problem IMO: ask yourself this - would that area be in the mess it is now if Israel was not there?

Yes. The psychotics in charge of Iran, the Wahhabiya in Saudi, the Sheikh of Al Azar, the Taleban, Hizb'ullah, Ghadaffi, Omar al-Bashi of Sudan, Somalia and all it's problems. I fail to see how Israel caused or influenced any of these. If Israel never existed, and if then the Levant (or just that corner of the Levant) were a blissful haven of peace and tranquility, it would be a weird exception in the region. The region is inherently violent and unstable and undemocratic and barbaric. Apart from Israel which, for all it's many faults and human rights abuses manages to be damn close to a democracy in a region which is largely governed by 10th Century laws of the desert.
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  #695  
Old 29.04.2010, 23:54
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Because your argument would have been best made 62 years ago. Today it couldn't be less relevant.
It is very relevant, as it is the cause of this mess. We'll have to agree to disagree. It'll take a long time for people in the region to get over this. It took the Irish a long time to come to the negotiating table. Why should Palestinians be expected to forget something that only happened 62 years ago?

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Yes. The psychotics in charge of Iran, the Wahhabiya in Saudi, the Sheikh of Al Azar, the Taleban, Hizb'ullah, Ghadaffi, Omar al-Bashi of Sudan, Somalia and all it's problems. I fail to see how Israel caused or influenced any of these. <snip>
No, I'm not saying that Israel is the cause of (all) inherent problems. Re-read what I wrote. I am saying it has in my view played, and continues to play, a key role in how America and the West is perceived in the Middle East.

Israeli's position and oppression of the Palestinians has been ably assisted by the US. If the US did not have a history of propping up the Israeli government, through loans and military training and equipment, then maybe that region would have been happily ripping itself to pieces (as they are, after all, so terribly barbaric) rather than focusing its hatred on the "Western Imperialists" of America.

That's how I think the two are linked. I'm not saying every situation is linked to Israel (and I never did), but I am saying that a lot of the animosity is fed by its very existence and America's (& the "West" to be fair) historical support for it.
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Old 30.04.2010, 00:39
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Everyone seem to forget that it already happened in History that Jews, Muslims and Christians lived together peacefully more than 500years during the andalusian time in the middle age. This is a proof that it's possible.

Every journey begins with a small step, and big changes can only arise when people start changing their mindset, when every single person starts to change. That's why I see this change among european jews who provided unconditional support to Israel as a first sign.
I don't think peace will happen tomorrow or the next month, but it will happen because everyone is fedup seeing wombs transformed into tombs, because everyone wants to see their children growing up in peace.
We need more people in the world like you!! I personally think peace in the Middle East now is far from being achieved basically because Israel is a bit more stronger that its neighbors .. and they won't compromise until they feel that they have to .. maybe in like 10 years if other countries like Syria & Egypt are a bit stronger... Israelis will sit on the table and negotiate and hopefully both sides give compromise and get this ugly ordeal over with!!

Personally I think the biggest problem is Jerusalem being capital of which state and for my opinion I think making it like the Vatican is the most decent solution!! Its a pitty that a beautiful region like the Middle East is ruined with all these wars and unsettle!
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Old 30.04.2010, 00:54
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Personally I think the biggest problem is Jerusalem being capital of which state and for my opinion I think making it like the Vatican is the most decent solution!! Its a pitty that a beautiful region like the Middle East is ruined with all these wars and unsettle!
I agree. But I don't see Israel compromising on this point and before anyone becomes more powerful than them they will have already captured Jerusalem.

The Middle East is indeed beatiful, fascinating, and the food...
  #698  
Old 30.04.2010, 07:50
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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...Yet there they are - a Greekless Turkey, a Slavless Greece, a Serbless Kosova...
Turkey is also Armenianless.

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...Why should Palestinians be expected to forget something that only happened 62 years ago?
They won't. So long as the terrorists (who also terrorise the Palestinians themselves) keep attacking Israel, and so Israel continues to treat the Palestinians harshly. I seem to recall, and I'm happy to be corrected, that when Israel was formed, those who fled their villages were dispossessed, but those who stayed became part of the new state.

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If the US did not have a history of propping up the Israeli government, through loans and military training and equipment, then maybe that region would have been happily ripping itself to pieces (as they are, after all, so terribly barbaric) rather than focusing its hatred on the "Western Imperialists" of America. .
Well, that's very nice of the Americans, to make themselves a target rather than let the region dissolve into chaos. For the most part, Israel has a better (though certainly not clean) record on human rights than Egypt, Syria or Jordan.
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Old 30.04.2010, 10:18
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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1) They won't. So long as the terrorists (who also terrorise the Palestinians themselves) keep attacking Israel, and so Israel continues to treat the Palestinians harshly.

2) I seem to recall, and I'm happy to be corrected, that when Israel was formed, those who fled their villages were dispossessed, but those who stayed became part of the new state.

3) Well, that's very nice of the Americans, to make themselves a target rather than let the region dissolve into chaos. For the most part, Israel has a better (though certainly not clean) record on human rights than Egypt, Syria or Jordan.


1) You probably "know" that collective punishment is forbidden by the Geneva Convention in its Art.33 (dated 12.Aug.1949). It's considered as a crime to punish a whole population because of the acts of a minority. I'm very surprised that you support such crimes.

2) Are you referring to the slaughter of "Khan Yunis" for example?
I admire the israeli democracy that allowed some arabs to be elected at the Knesset. But you know that most arab citizens of israel are considered as "2nd class" citizens and are denied a certain number of services. On their ID they have written "arab". Does that ring a bell?

3)Yes Israel is a democracy and I admire it for that. Yet Israel is catching up with Egypt and Syria when it comes to human rights violation. I'm sure that you'll find your way among the long list of references from Amnesty International, Goldstone Report on Gaza War, or the reports from a huge number of israeli soliders who decided to report with courage the crimes they have seen.
I am a supporter of the co-existence of Israel and Palestine State. I admire israel's democratic system. All we want is that Israel complies to the international decisions of the UN. I invite you and other to have a look at the Russel Tribunal for Palestine which bring facts about the violations.

PS: I changed the format of the post, but content was not modified.
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Old 30.04.2010, 10:27
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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1) You probably "know" that collective punishment is forbidden by the Geneva Convention in its Art.33 (dated 12.Aug.1949). It's considered as a crime to punish a whole population because of the acts of a minority. I'm very surprised that you support such crimes.

2) Are you referring to the slaughter of "Khan Yunis" for example?
I admire the israeli democracy that allowed some arabs to be elected at the Knesset. But you know that most arab citizens of israel are considered as "2nd class" citizens and are denied a certain number of services. On their ID they have written "arab". Does that ring a bell?

3)Yes Israel is a democracy and I admire it for that. Yet Israel is catching up with Egypt and Syria when it comes to human rights violation. I'm sure that you'll find your way among the long list of references from Amnesty International, Goldstone Report on Gaza War, or the reports from a huge number of israeli soliders who decided to report with courage the crimes they have seen.
I am a supporter of the co-existence of Israel and Palestine State. I admire israel's democratic system. All we want is that Israel complies to the international decisions of the UN. I invite you and other to have a look at the Russel Tribunal for Palestine which bring facts about the violations.

PS: I changed the format of the post, but content was not modified.


On the subject of "collective punishment" I rather think a suicide bomb in a pizzeria is somewhat less targetted than Israeli strikes. No wait, it's in fact targetted at women and children and explicitely not the Israeli army. The Israeli army may not care whether is takes out a school here and there (it probably does care but obviously not enough) when it's targetting known terrorists, but it doesn't go out to target them.

Catching up to Egypt and Syria? Maybe, but even if that's so, Palestinian allegiant Israeli Arabs have the best life and most freedom in all the Middle East. They love living there and making use of world class hospitals and facilities which they would never have had if not for the Israelis (ever been to a rural Syrian hospital? I have).
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