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Old 30.04.2010, 09:47
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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On the subject of "collective punishment" I rather think a suicide bomb in a pizzeria is somewhat less targetted than Israeli strikes. No wait, it's in fact targetted at women and children and explicitely not the Israeli army. The Israeli army may not care whether is takes out a school here and there (it probably does care but obviously not enough) when it's targetting known terrorists, but it doesn't go out to target them
A suicide bomber is not an elected representative of the Palestinian people, whereas Israeli soldiers take their orders from the State.
This is really elementary stuff, its like a Fox news debate
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  #702  
Old 30.04.2010, 09:49
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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On the subject of "collective punishment" I rather think a suicide bomb in a pizzeria is somewhat less targetted than Israeli strikes. No wait, it's in fact targetted at women and children and explicitely not the Israeli army. The Israeli army may not care whether is takes out a school here and there (it probably does care but obviously not enough) when it's targetting known terrorists, but it doesn't go out to target them.

Catching up to Egypt and Syria? Maybe, but even if that's so, Palestinian allegiant Israeli Arabs have the best life and most freedom in all the Middle East. They love living there and making use of world class hospitals and facilities which they would never have had if not for the Israelis (ever been to a rural Syrian hospital? I have).
- where did I mention support for suicide bombing? Why do you keep writing palestinians=terrorists? By giving indulgence to the "collective" punsihment by israeli army you put them on the same level as the terrorists (that I condemn).

- Arab israelis have democratic rights. I pointed out the "inequality" of treatment and the mentioning of "arab" in the ID. I invite you to read the report of the Association for the Advancement of Civic Equality in Israel.
It will be quite surprising for you. you will learn a few things.

On a side note Economisto: i respect you opinion and debate with you in full respect and no arrogance. I ask you in return to act likewise. No one has the full truth. Those who disagree with you are no full idiots. Please avoid using images "facepalm"...it's really not constructive.
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  #703  
Old 30.04.2010, 09:52
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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A suicide bomber is not an elected representative of the Palestinian people, whereas Israeli soldiers take their orders from the State.
This is really elementary stuff, its like a Fox news debate
Wasn't Hitler elected and didn't the German state decide to gas the Jews; the SS officers and personnel were taking orders as well..
Oh, that was OK then?
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  #704  
Old 30.04.2010, 09:54
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Wasn't Hitler elected and didn't the German state decide to gas the Jews.
Oh, that was OK then?
WTF???
  #705  
Old 30.04.2010, 09:58
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Wasn't Hitler elected and didn't the German state decide to gas the Jews; the SS officers and personal were taking orders as well..
Oh, that was OK then?
WTF???
No. Not WTF.

Godwin is the word you're looking for.

Economisto, a while back you said that I was so blinkered/biased that I must have some conflict of interest to disclose.

I replied to your question (that I didn't), but now I ask you: do you have a conflict of interest to disclose, as you are so "squarely" on the side of Israel?
  #706  
Old 30.04.2010, 10:02
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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A suicide bomber is not an elected representative of the Palestinian people, whereas Israeli soldiers take their orders from the State.
This is really elementary stuff, its like a Fox news debate
Touche!

It's wonderful being a dictatorship full of little suicidal psychopaths - you can apparently act with total impunity! Poor Israel for actually giving it's citizens freedom - that way they can be blamed collectively, for when even 99% of the Palestinians do or beleive something, we cannot talk collectively because it's not a democracy. It's them. It's all of them. If I lived in a little strip of land and I saw suicide bombers on their way to kill innocents I'd stop them. They all know where they are, where they live, who their families are. It's a community. If terrorists didn't have popular support they wouldn't exist. Now that's pretty elementary don't you think?

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- where did I mention support for suicide bombing? Why do you keep writing palestinians=terrorists? By giving indulgence to the "collective" punsihment by israeli army you put them on the same level as the terrorists (that I condemn).

- Arab israelis have democratic rights. I pointed out the "inequality" of treatment and the mentioning of "arab" in the ID. I invite you to read the report of the Association for the Advancement of Civic Equality in Israel.
It will be quite surprising for you. you will learn a few things.

On a side note Economisto: i respect you opinion and debate with you in full respect and no arrogance. I ask you in return to act likewise. No one has the full truth. Those who disagree with you are no full idiots. Please avoid using images "facepalm"...it's really not constructive.
Some of the people who disagree with me on this thread really are idiots. Not because they disagree with me of course. I apologise for the facepalm. I don't think Israel is blameless, and after a while in a continuing conflict everyone reverts to equal blame, looking to the past is futile - perhaps Israel really didn't have a right to exist in the first place - conceded, but that couldn't be less relevant now. It's acquired those rights through time. What's relevant now is you have a western and forward thinking democracy who does some terrible things to keep itself secure and a strip of land full of refugee camps which just produces hatred and terrorism.
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  #707  
Old 30.04.2010, 10:02
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Re: European jewish call for reason

See above.
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No. Not WTF.

Godwin is the word you're looking for.

Economisto, a while back you said that I was so blinkered/biased that I must have some conflict of interest to disclose.

I replied to your question (that I didn't), but now I ask you: do you have a conflict of interest to disclose, as you are so "squarely" on the side of Israel?
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  #708  
Old 30.04.2010, 10:03
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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What about Greece? Turkey? Kosova? Northern Cyprus? These nations were also created out of the chaos of the decline of the Ottoman Empire by the murder and expulsion of much of the existing populations in order to create modern states on the principles of (a greater or lesser degree of) ethnic purity.

<snip>

What makes the Jewish homeland so different from those other 'national homelands', other than the fact that their 'cleansing' process hasn't been quite so efficient?
Weren't all the examples you cited, examples of a situation where existing populations pushed out a minority?

In the case of Israel, a minority, became an imported majority and pushed out the existing peoples, now "conveniently" (to use Economisto's term from earlier) called the Palestinians.

However bad (as in the violence against humanity) the examples you cite are, I do see this as a fundamental difference between your examples and Israel.
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Old 30.04.2010, 10:44
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Weren't all the examples you cited, examples of a situation where existing populations pushed out a minority?
So majority pushing out minority is acceptable? It's a numbers game is it? Didn't the Arabs try to push out/over run minority Jews but failed miserably?

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In the case of Israel, a minority, became an imported majority and pushed out the existing peoples, now "conveniently" (to use Economisto's term from earlier) called the Palestinians.
USA, Australia? Historically speaking Jews have stronger claim to Israel than European settlers had to USA or Australia but based on your posts it is clear that history started only 60 odd years ago
It's all about religion no matter how people try to paint it.
  #710  
Old 30.04.2010, 10:49
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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So majority pushing out minority is acceptable? It's a numbers game is it?
No. That's not what I said, it is what you have inferred.

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USA, Australia? Historically speaking Jews have stronger claim to Israel than European settlers had to USA or Australia but based on your posts it is clear that history started only 60 odd years ago It's all about religion no matter how people try to paint it.
The world has moved on since the USA and Australia were colonised. What was acceptable then, is not acceptable now.

What happened 60 years ago was not acceptable then, it is not acceptable now.

(I never said there wasn't a religious sub-text to all this.)
  #711  
Old 30.04.2010, 11:06
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Two state solution based on religion is the only thing that will work because the people in the region have more religion than sense. For long lasting peace it would have to involve repatriating Israeli Arabs into the new independent Palestinian country.

Make Jerusalem a no go area for all religious people. Shoot at sight order for anyone who tries to enter Jerusalem. Actually barricade Jerusalem and allow only atheists, gays and lesbians to hang out and party there.

If ever people in the region develop more sense then both countries could be combined and called Pinkland
  #712  
Old 30.04.2010, 11:22
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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1) You probably "know" that collective punishment is forbidden by the Geneva Convention in its Art.33 (dated 12.Aug.1949). It's considered as a crime to punish a whole population because of the acts of a minority. I'm very surprised that you support such crimes.
Let's put that in context:

Why should Palestinians be expected to forget something that only happened 62 years ago?




They won't. So long as the terrorists (who also terrorise the Palestinians themselves) keep attacking Israel, and so Israel continues to treat the Palestinians harshly.

Now, I'm not quite sure where you think in that, that I support collective punishment. I don't. Where the Geneva converion is being violated is in the bulldozing of terrorists homes. Sanctions do not equal collective punishment.

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2) Are you referring to the slaughter of "Khan Yunis" for example?
I'm aware that there were slaughters. But not every village where the villagers stayed put were killed. It seems that the majority were left alone.
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But you know that most arab citizens of israel are considered as "2nd class" citizens and are denied a certain number of services. On their ID they have written "arab".
Yes I am aware of that.

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Wasn't Hitler elected and didn't the German state decide to gas the Jews; the SS officers and personnel were taking orders as well..
Oh, that was OK then?
Ever heard of Godwin's law?
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  #713  
Old 30.04.2010, 11:34
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Two state solution based on religion is the only thing that will work because the people in the region have more religion than sense.
Amen to that.

Reminded me of this story: http://atlasobscura.com/place/immova...holy-sepulchre

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4944164.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle5121217.ece

It's not just the Jews and Arabs going at it in Jerusalem...
  #714  
Old 30.04.2010, 12:01
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Re: European jewish call for reason

Not sure if its been posted here but this song has solved the conflict outright

  #715  
Old 30.04.2010, 12:05
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Thread merged as this all falls under one banner, and most aspects have been covered already...
  #716  
Old 30.04.2010, 13:24
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Thread merged as this all falls under one banner, and most aspects have been covered already...
again and again for the last 60 or so years...
  #717  
Old 30.04.2010, 13:49
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

In all of this there is no solution without serious compromises by all concerned. Israel must concede some level of governance to the Palestinians and accept them into Israel with the same rights as all Israelis citizen and the Palestinian terrorist organisations must lay down their weapons.

At the moment one act vile act fuels another. Terrorists are accountable for their actions and so must any Israeli if they choose to step beyond either Israeli or International law, whoever they are.
  #718  
Old 30.04.2010, 13:51
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Re: European jewish call for reason

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Weren't all the examples you cited, examples of a situation where existing populations pushed out a minority?
Not at all. They're all situations in which one ethnic group, in the name of nationalism, removed existing populations, which had either co-existed with them for some time, or which had been in the area before them.

Just like Israel.

So why does Israel get all the attention? Is it because the nationalists in this case are Jewish?

I do wonder sometimes...
  #719  
Old 30.04.2010, 13:51
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Don't be silly, the right of return means kaput for Israel. It's a democracy. Let in 11 million Palestinians, give them the vote and they'll simply elect to kick the Jews out. Also, "international law" doesn't actually exist.


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In all of this there is no solution without serious compromises by all concerned. Israel must concede some level of governance to the Palestinians and accept them into Israel with the same rights as all Israelis citizen and the Palestinian terrorist organisations must lay down their weapons.

At the moment one act vile act fuels another. Terrorists are accountable for their actions and so must any Israeli if they choose to step beyond either Israeli or International law, whoever they are.
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Old 30.04.2010, 14:01
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Don't be silly, the right of return means kaput for Israel. It's a democracy. Let in 11 million Palestinians, give them the vote and they'll simply elect to kick the Jews out. Also, "international law" doesn't actually exist.
Well the stupid alternative is to continue as it is and for Israel to sanction violence and discrimination against a group of people who have as much right to be where they are as the Israelis do

Ask Karadzic about international law. I'm sure he's feeling a little nervous right now about it. You may believe that it doesn't work and I would perhaps argue that you are right but there is International law but it typically favours strong nations and those that have won the battles.

But that's just my silly opinion.
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