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  #781  
Old 09.05.2010, 16:12
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Looks like Economisto and I are trying to score groans for our own sides, shame we have to be so childish huh. Why the groan -I'm stating facts here and I was very nice about the humus. Actually, I have humus wars with my Jewish friend we both try to out do each other. He makes a mean humus with sun-dried tomatoes-so yummy! My parsley humus is pretty good.

However the Israelis really seem to want to stop Palestinians from playing football; here are some more facts....


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In March 2006 Israel bombed the Palestine Football Stadium in Gaza, leaving a massive crater in the middle of the pitch. The FIFA stepped in and paid for the cost of restoring it. "In the world of today, which is disrupted by long-lasting disputes and violence, football is one of the very few universal tools mankind can use to bridge gaps between nations and peoples, and to symbolise what unites our planet over what divides it. FIFA's role is not to reprimand, but to help create bonds and ensure that the young people of the region have hope and the possibility to enjoy the school of life that football represents," FIFA President Sepp Blatter said at the time.
In 2004 Israel tried to prevent the Palestinian football team from participating in the the (FIFA) World Cup qualifiers, by stopping several members of the team from leaving Gaza.
http://www.zambianews.net/story/567910


Actually just for the record I seldom groan, show me where I have groaned at you Economisto.
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  #782  
Old 09.05.2010, 19:32
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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How can you understand something which is not there ? I congratulated the Lebanese on their latest achievement.

I bear no grudges for the Lebanese people - I feel sorry for them. They (mostly the christians) have a lot in common with Israelis - they celebrate life, they look for business opportunities where others don't bother...

But - Isrealis are a coherent nation, Lebanese are sectarian and are always on the verge of a civil war. The only thing which unites them is the hatred of Israel (real hated or fake one for the media).

As long as this hatred is limited to Humous wars - no problem. I'd love to see a football game between Israel and Lebanon - even if Israel loses. But unfortunately Lebanese politicians won't let that Happen and FIFA won't enforce its rules.

If winning the Humous record helped to vent some Anti-Israeli feelings - great ! better this than violence.

************************************************** **

Just some points to be mentioned

** Also the Muslims in Lebanon celebrate life and look for business opportunities.

** No, what unites the Lebanese is the knowledge that they have to find a way forward together, hatred against Israel is not really important. Even if Israel is not in particularily high regard.

** The "Israeli" adversaries according to the article in fact also are Arabs

** Lebanese politicians only can move ahead towards real peace when the Israelis have arrived at peace with Syria

** Lebanon is not "always on the verge of civil war". And since the Civil War usually do everything to reduce internal tensions and to avoid anything which could lead to another civil war

** FIFA at the other hand cannot enforce its rules against political realities, and never could. FIFA was and is in the same position as the IOC and the ICRC and other such organisations. Eager to try the very best, but forced to accept realities as they are !
  #783  
Old 09.05.2010, 20:05
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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************************************************** **

Just some points to be mentioned

** Also the Muslims in Lebanon celebrate life and look for business opportunities.
Agreed. espcially the "also"

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** No, what unites the Lebanese is the knowledge that they have to find a way forward together, hatred against Israel is not really important. Even if Israel is not in particularily high regard.
Prove it. so far the vast majority of political action in Lebanon was secterian. There is a big part of the Lebanese Public which is righty afraid of having an Iranian army (funded, equiped, trained) inside their country - the single largest risk to Lebanon. so far they were not able to do much about it.


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** The "Israeli" adversaries according to the article in fact also are Arabs
You mean the good people of Abu Gosh, makers of the (potentialy) best humous known to man ? They are Arabs & Israeli.

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** Lebanese politicians only can move ahead towards real peace when the Israelis have arrived at peace with Syria
Why ? perhaps for the same reason Kermit the frog can only move when his puppeteer moves

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** Lebanon is not "always on the verge of civil war". And since the Civil War usually do everything to reduce internal tensions and to avoid anything which could lead to another civil war
Oh yes it is. There was a lot of Secterian violence since the last civil war. very little, except of the Syrians can stop them from evolving into something much more sinister

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** FIFA at the other hand cannot enforce its rules against political realities, and never could. FIFA was and is in the same position as the IOC and the ICRC and other such organisations. Eager to try the very best, but forced to accept realities as they are !
Why not ? FIFA made the rules, so what's the point of having them if you can't keep them ?
  #784  
Old 09.05.2010, 20:35
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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ha! Sly hoppy, very sly. Of course Iran, Russia, USA, Germany and the UK have a lot to do with the Levant dynamic. But Iran's technology industry, security issues, relationship with the USA - not so much. Quit hijacking. Also, no comments on the other aspects of my post?
You mention USA, Russia, Germany, France and the U.K. which are big powers. Iran however is just medium, even less so than Turkey or India. Iran meddles in Levantine affairs primarily through its ally Hizbullah, but just as Turkey, Greece and Italy is an "outside power" .
  #785  
Old 14.05.2010, 15:50
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Barack Obama is to ask the US Congress for an extra $200m in military aid to help Israel get a short-range rocket defence system in place.
The system is designed to shoot down mortars and rockets from Gaza or Southern Lebanon with guided missiles.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8681919.stm

So why don't they give Palestine the same? After all there are more rockets being fired into Palestine from Israel than vice versa. perhsp they can modify the shield so it stops the rockets both ways? Could we have a bilateral one one for military tanks and planes too please?
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  #786  
Old 14.05.2010, 16:21
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Sigh.

There is no "Palestine" so please please stop making reference to things that exist only in your imagination. The Palestinians are divided into two territories with two separate governments. One of which has terrorist elements and sympathies, the other being quite simply terrorists. Neither of these governments are democratically elected so can claim legitimacy over absolutely nobody. So which America-hating terrorist group would you like America to arm?

Additionally, it boggles the mind that you'd have an issue with Israel having a purely defensive weapon that stops it being attacked.

Now go read a book.


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Barack Obama is to ask the US Congress for an extra $200m in military aid to help Israel get a short-range rocket defence system in place.
The system is designed to shoot down mortars and rockets from Gaza or Southern Lebanon with guided missiles.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8681919.stm

So why don't they give Palestine the same? After all there are more rockets being fired into Palestine from Israel than vice versa. perhsp they can modify the shield so it stops the rockets both ways? Could we have a bilateral one one for military tanks and planes too please?
  #787  
Old 14.05.2010, 16:37
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Sigh.

There is no "Palestine" so please please stop making reference to things that exist only in your imagination. The Palestinians are divided into two territories with two separate governments. One of which has terrorist elements and sympathies, the other being quite simply terrorists. Neither of these governments are democratically elected so can claim legitimacy over absolutely nobody. So which America-hating terrorist group would you like America to arm?

Additionally, it boggles the mind that you'd have an issue with Israel having a purely defensive weapon that stops it being attacked.

Now go read a book.
I have the impression that economisto is the only one on Earth who denies the existence of Palestine and palestinians. In history, those who are starting to lose politically the battle tend to label the others with "terrorists" (see colonial history, recent wars,...).

I would like to point some interesting readings and reports from the US Dept. of State regarding free elections in Palestine. Since you don't like reading, go directly to page 11 to get the official US reaction. They accepted the results as democratic.

As conclusion, it's important that the parties involved in the conflict recognize mutualy the existence of the other party. So the region will cope for sure with your denial of the situation.
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  #788  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:01
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Sigh.


Now go read a book.
Oooh- like it- Machismo coupled with a example of intellectualism- a double whammy, yes Sir Herr Economisto!
  #789  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:02
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Sigghhhhhhhhh.....

Of course there are Palestinians. But Palestinians themselves are acutely aware that there is no Palestine. I'm sure if there was a Palestine, the Palestinians would be overjoyed. I rather think that's what they've been fighting for. So to say that they already have it is sort of weird. To be honest, when searching for a definition of "terrorist" I start by asking the question "do they strap on bombs and blow themselves up inside pizzerias full of children" if yes, they're probably terrorists. Your defense of them elicits bile reflux.

Tell me. Which bit of the world is Palestine and who is in charge? I'd love to know, and what he or she (haha, no just he) plans to do about Gaza. If this so called leader is allowed to go to all parts of his sovereign nation?

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I have the impression that economisto is the only one on Earth who denies the existence of Palestine and palestinians. In history, those who are starting to lose politically the battle tend to label the others with "terrorists" (see colonial history, recent wars,...).

I would like to point some interesting readings and reports from the US Dept. of State regarding free elections in Palestine. Since you don't like reading, go directly to page 11 to get the official US reaction. They accepted the results as democratic.

As conclusion, it's important that the parties involved in the conflict recognize mutualy the existence of the other party. So the region will cope for sure with your denial of the situation.
  #790  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

There may not be a Palestinian state, but there's certainly something called Palestine . . . where else do Palestinians come from?
  #791  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:08
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Patch of desert near Cyprus formerly known as Transjordan.
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There may not be a Palestinian state, but there's certainly something called Palestine . . . where else do Palestinians come from?
  #792  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:10
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Patch of desert near Cyprus formerly known as Transjordan.
It was even called the Palestinian Mandate, right? Saying there's no such thing is a bit different from saying it's not well defined or it's a historically difficult concept.
  #793  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:13
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Sure, a geographical region. Whatever. The context of this discussion was Hoppy suggesting America gives this geographical region weaponry on a like for like basis with the State of Israel. Next we could equip the Cheddar Gorge with tactical nukes.
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It was even called the Palestinian Mandate, right? Saying there's no such thing is a bit different from saying it's not well defined or it's a historically difficult concept.
  #794  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:14
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Sure, a geographical region. Whatever. The context of this discussion was Hoppy suggesting America gives this geographical region weaponry on a like for like basis with the State of Israel. Next we could equip the Cheddar Gorge with tactical nukes.
I don't agree with Hoppy, but I think what was being said was fairly clear.
  #795  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:18
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I don't agree with Hoppy, but I think what was being said was fairly clear.
Yeah...me too. It went something like this:

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So why don't they give Palestine the same? After all there are more rockets being fired into Palestinefrom Israel than vice versa. perhsp they can modify the shield so it stops the rockets both ways? Could we have a bilateral one one for military tanks and planes too please?
So. Which Hamas "General" should we hand over these tanks and planes to? Should we arm Al Qaeda too while we're at it? I'm sure they have some legitimate greivances.
  #796  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:25
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Sigghhhhhhhhh.....

To be honest, when searching for a definition of "terrorist" I start by asking the question "do they strap on bombs and blow themselves up inside pizzerias full of children" if yes, they're probably terrorists. Your defense of them elicits bile reflux.
I never defended any terrorist act. We end in the same discussion again, you see all palestinians (in Gaza or West Bank) as terrorists.
  #797  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:31
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I never defended any terrorist act. We end in the same discussion again, you see all palestinians (in Gaza or West Bank) as terrorists.
No. I do not. But I do not see them as a cohesive people. I do not see them with a single leadership that may be negotiated with. I see terrorists in powerful positions with far reaching influence (especially Hamas in Gaza). So while there are many quiet Palestinians who aren't active terrorists I don't care. Whenever we talk in millions we have to generalise. And generally, the territories are lawless and full of America-hating extremists. So I ask again: to whom shall we sell the fighter planes?
  #798  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:36
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Look at this post Economisto #781 I think that your bombardment of groans against me while I don't think I have groaned once at you are an act of EF terrorism! Even when I mention it I get a groan- you are too funny! Go on, I know you are itching to lob another groan! The pattern is getting very predictable.
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  #799  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:38
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

No problem. Care to defend your ludicrous argument? Selling weapons to the Palestinians Hoppy, if you're joking then I congratulate you - both pithy and erudite, well timed and delivered. But I don't think you are joking. I think you really see the world like that. Like a normal person who's had their head stamped on repeatedly.
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Look at this post Economisto #781 I think that your bombardment of groans against me while I don't think I have groaned once at you are an act of EF terrorism! Even when I mention it I get a groan- you are too funny! Go on, I know you are itching to lob another groan! The pattern is getting very predictable.
  #800  
Old 14.05.2010, 17:45
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Yeah...me too. It went something like this:



So. Which Hamas "General" should we hand over these tanks and planes to? Should we arm Al Qaeda too while we're at it? I'm sure they have some legitimate greivances.
I am not saying give tanks and planes to anyone, why not sink them and try to make a coral reef? Of course I ma sure that the Israelis would reason that they should sell them, I don't think that they would be giving them away for free. All I am saying is that a such a shiled would stop the illegitimate Israeli seizure of Plaestinian land-oh right- the Palestine does not exist- so how is the seizure of Palestinian land illegal? It all becomes so clear once you believe in the story of the promised land.
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