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Old 14.05.2010, 18:52
hoppy
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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No problem. Care to defend your ludicrous argument? Selling weapons to the Palestinians Hoppy, if you're joking then I congratulate you - both pithy and erudite, well timed and delivered. But I don't think you are joking. I think you really see the world like that. Like a normal person who's had their head stamped on repeatedly.
Where have I advocated selling arms to the Palestinians- we are talking about defense shields! I am having trouble reading words like Pithy and erudite never mind the book you told me to go read 'cos you keep frightening me with words about having my head stomped on. Gee I wonder if this is what it feels like to be a Palestinian? Normal people -read our book about the promised land or get your head stamped in. Luckily I am not normal- I thought you would have figured that out by now!
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  #802  
Old 14.05.2010, 19:14
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

agh Hoppy, you don't scare that easily! Go back to the last time you mentioned the word "tank".
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Where have I advocated selling arms to the Palestinians- we are talking about defense shields! I am having trouble reading words like Pithy and erudite never mind the book you told me to go read 'cos you keep frightening me with words about having my head stomped on. Gee I wonder if this is what it feels like to be a Palestinian? Normal people -read our book about the promised land or get your head stamped in. Luckily I am not normal- I thought you would have figured that out by now!
  #803  
Old 14.05.2010, 19:48
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I don't think it would be a good idea to give arms to Palestine for obvious reasons. I do, however, think it is plainly obvious that the situation does not allow for any form of policing.

How are any of the "leaders" of Palestine to keep terrorists from doing what they do if the present Israeli government doesn't allow them to?

Keeping the WB and Gaza terrorism free obviously isn't on Israel's mind. It seems too convenient to use that as an excuse to build walls, bulldoze homes and make more room for religious fanatics to "settle" on someone's land.
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  #804  
Old 15.05.2010, 00:01
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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How are any of the "leaders" of Palestine to keep terrorists from doing what they do if the present Israeli government doesn't allow them to?
I guess you never heard of General Dayton - http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=265173

Do you have concrete examples of Israel stopping Palestinian leaders from fighting Terror ?

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Keeping the WB and Gaza terrorism free obviously isn't on Israel's mind. It seems too convenient to use that as an excuse to build walls, bulldoze homes and make more room for religious fanatics to "settle" on someone's land.
Never let facts get in the way of a good argument. Surely building settlements will be easier if the settlers are not fired upon ?
P.S - settlers being religious fanatics is another canard. it makes it easier for the un-informed to say "there are fanatics on both sides" (perphans the world's most used cliche, except "At the end of the day" or "It's not, it's me"
  #805  
Old 15.05.2010, 00:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Do you have concrete examples of Israel stopping Palestinian leaders from fighting Terror ?
Loads of examples, they fight the Israeli terrorists.

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Never let facts get in the way of a good argument. Surely building settlements will be easier if the settlers are not fired upon ?
P.S - settlers being religious fanatics is another canard. it makes it easier for the un-informed to say "there are fanatics on both sides" (perphans the world's most used cliche, except "At the end of the day" or "It's not, it's me"
Why should the Palestinians make it easier for the Israeli immigrants to break the law and steal land? Then they would be complicit and classed as accessories in an illegal act. The Palestinians are trying to defend international law without resource to the weapons of mass destruction used by the Israelis.
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  #806  
Old 15.05.2010, 13:33
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I guess you never heard of General Dayton - http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=265173

Do you have concrete examples of Israel stopping Palestinian leaders from fighting Terror ?



Never let facts get in the way of a good argument. Surely building settlements will be easier if the settlers are not fired upon ?
P.S - settlers being religious fanatics is another canard. it makes it easier for the un-informed to say "there are fanatics on both sides" (perphans the world's most used cliche, except "At the end of the day" or "It's not, it's me"
Yes, I have heard of him.
One of Israel's most effective weapons in keeping any palestinian leadership from policing the state is destroying their infrastructure. It's that simple. You can't maintain any semblance of order without infrastructure.

No, building settlements is much easier when being fired upon. How many settlers are killed? Relatively few. But when the so-called settlers are attacked, or Hezbollah launches it's rather ineffective Katusha rockets, or a soldier is kidnapped it gives Israel an excuse to build more walls, block more highways, sequester land etc.

It's very effective.
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  #807  
Old 15.05.2010, 18:08
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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But serious questions about the role and future of these security forces need to be asked -- not just because Meshaal raises them, but because his concerns reflect widespread Palestinian sentiments. It is now common to refer to the current Palestinian government as either the "Fayyad/Dayton government" or just "the Dayton government" and the Palestinian security forces as "the Dayton forces." This is not meant as a compliment. This widespread perception partly represents a strategic communications failure on the part of Dayton's team -- and partly represents real, perhaps irresolvable, contradictions. There are major questions about the mission of these new Palestinian security forces which have largely escaped serious public debate. Are they meant to establish law and order, as per the official mandate? Is it something akin to the logic of COIN, establishing security and population security in order to provide the breathing space for political reconciliation? Is it to target Hamas and its infrastructure, as the Israelis demand and as seems to have been happening of late in Qalqaliya, Hebron, and elsewhere? How do these security forces fit withing Netanyahu's concept of a demilitarized Palestinian state?
http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts..._and_a_warning

What is it called when a foreign power arms the political opponents of a country's democratically elected party to favour thier own man?

I don't like the extreme wing of Hamas but anyone with any sense can recognize what the intent of training and arming the Fayyad government is.

Who does this intervention favour Palestine, Israel or both?
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  #808  
Old 15.05.2010, 19:17
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Do you have concrete examples of Israel stopping Palestinian leaders from fighting Terror ?
"The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend". This is the rule used by Shamir, Sharon and Netanyahu to encourage and help funding the terrorist movement Hamas. It was a way to fight PLO by pushing an extremist party in the occupied territories. Likud's nightmare has been always to have a moderate partner from palestinian side, that would force them to go to negotiation table and give territories back. Here are some pointers to this part of the dark side of Israel's history.
This strategy has been applied by the US in the 80's when fighting the soviets in Afghanistan....yes they were supporting the talibans.
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  #809  
Old 15.05.2010, 19:38
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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P.S - settlers being religious fanatics is another canard. it makes it easier for the un-informed to say "there are fanatics on both sides" (perphans the world's most used cliche, except "At the end of the day" or "It's not, it's me"
I don't think that today we can be uninformed. The worst blind is the one who deliberately refuses to see. You can't say anymore ""we didn't know".

There are several crimes committed today in the occupied territories both by the israeli occupation forces, some settlers and the palestinian extremists.
I hail the work of free citizens, like in B'Tslem, who refuses the crime of silence, and report all abuses committed by soldiers, settlers and palestinians.
The arson of mosques, olive trees, by extremist settlers is a known fact but never followed by punishment by the occupation forces.
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Old 15.05.2010, 19:46
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The arson of mosques, olive trees, by extremist settlers is a known fact but never followed by punishment by the occupation forces.
It's not true that settlers are NEVER prosecuted.
  #811  
Old 15.05.2010, 19:50
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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It's not true that settlers are NEVER prosecuted.

You are absolute right ,prosecuted, right ,put punished ??
  #812  
Old 15.05.2010, 19:59
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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It's not true that settlers are NEVER prosecuted.
Please read the following article. Here is an excerpt:

"In the few situations where investigations into settler violence are begun, they are lengthy and almost invariably closed without any action being taken or convictions being made. In the extremely rare cases that are taken to court, punishment is lenient. In reality, Palestinians have no real legal recourse against settlers who are allowed to act with impunity. In failing to prevent the lawless behavior of settlers, the authorities are in effect sanctioning it."
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Old 15.05.2010, 20:19
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Please read the following article. Here is an excerpt:

"In the few situations where investigations into settler violence are begun, they are lengthy and almost invariably closed without any action being taken or convictions being made. In the extremely rare cases that are taken to court, punishment is lenient. In reality, Palestinians have no real legal recourse against settlers who are allowed to act with impunity. In failing to prevent the lawless behavior of settlers, the authorities are in effect sanctioning it."
That's rather a pro-Palestinian website. If you've got something more impartial I'd be happy to read that.

BTW - I fully accept that Palestinians suffer poor treatment and that settlers don't get their fair share of consequences for their actions.
  #814  
Old 15.05.2010, 21:09
economisto
 
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Ahahahahahhaha middle east monitor ahahahaha
Sorry vertigo, I was debating with you before, I'll stop now since you've quoted the hamas enquirer and obviously this thread is a parody which I didnt understand. I'll stop now.


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Please read the following article. Here is an excerpt:

"In the few situations where investigations into settler violence are begun, they are lengthy and almost invariably closed without any action being taken or convictions being made. In the extremely rare cases that are taken to court, punishment is lenient. In reality, Palestinians have no real legal recourse against settlers who are allowed to act with impunity. In failing to prevent the lawless behavior of settlers, the authorities are in effect sanctioning it."
  #815  
Old 15.05.2010, 21:54
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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That's rather a pro-Palestinian website. If you've got something more impartial I'd be happy to read that.

BTW - I fully accept that Palestinians suffer poor treatment and that settlers don't get their fair share of consequences for their actions.
Soldiers that served in the occupied territories are providing numerous cases of abuses. There is an association: Break the Silence with testimonies.
  #816  
Old 15.05.2010, 22:00
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Vertigo seriously I'm aching to believe every word you say - please quote something at least a little reputable, this is starting to read like the homeopathy thread.
  #817  
Old 15.05.2010, 22:10
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I would like to draw your attention on a new campaign initiated by an organization Im Tirtzu against NGOs fighting for civil rights and justice in Israel (like B'Tselem, Adalah, Yesh Din). The main attacks of this new group with deep pockets focus on New Israel Fund and its president Naomi Hazan. The New Israel Fund is known for helping judge Goldstone in establishing abuse cases in his report for the UNO.
There is a kind of "mccarthyism" initiated by the Likoud and targets the ban of any NGO with foreign funding and acting against the "interest" of Israel. The targeted NGO financed by the USA, Netherlands, Switzerland and other European countries are active in establishing cases of war crimes or abuses in Israel and occupied territories. Many israeli intellectuals started protesting against this violation of civil rights.
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Old 15.05.2010, 22:16
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Soldiers that served in the occupied territories are providing numerous cases of abuses. There is an association: Break the Silence with testimonies.
You expect me to read the whole website?

The claim was that settlers never get punished. I don't think that's true. Is there something on that website relevant to that claim?
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  #819  
Old 15.05.2010, 22:19
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

You sound like a weirdly programmed forum newsbot. Are you going to continue to post irrelevant biased drivel or will you answer our questions?
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I would like to draw your attention on a new campaign initiated by an organization Im Tirtzu against NGOs fighting for civil rights and justice in Israel (like B'Tselem, Adalah, Yesh Din). The main attacks of this new group with deep pockets focus on New Israel Fund and its president Naomi Hazan. The New Israel Fund is known for helping judge Goldstone in establishing abuse cases in his report for the UNO.
There is a kind of "mccarthyism" initiated by the Likoud and targets the ban of any NGO with foreign funding and acting against the "interest" of Israel. The targeted NGO financed by the USA, Netherlands, Switzerland and other European countries are active in establishing cases of war crimes or abuses in Israel and occupied territories. Many israeli intellectuals started protesting against this violation of civil rights.
  #820  
Old 15.05.2010, 22:20
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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"The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend". This is the rule used by Shamir, Sharon and Netanyahu to encourage and help funding the terrorist movement Hamas. It was a way to fight PLO by pushing an extremist party in the occupied territories. Likud's nightmare has been always to have a moderate partner from palestinian side, that would force them to go to negotiation table and give territories back. Here are some pointers to this part of the dark side of Israel's history.
This strategy has been applied by the US in the 80's when fighting the soviets in Afghanistan....yes they were supporting the talibans.
Soul food made the claim that Israel is stopping the Palestinians from fighting terror - you, soul food and the others can not provide examples to prove it, so you go on a tangent and quote a convicted fraud and an Anti semite.

Please provide a single (one, 1, less than 2 - in case you need clarification) for Netanyahu "encouraging and helping to fund" Hamas. How about a wager to make it more interesting ?
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