Jerusalem does not belong to Israel. The whole point of intervention is that the Arabs do not get their act together,-you really don't want the Arabs to get their act together Pashosh- do you? Think about what happens if the Arabs get their act together! You really, really, need to keep Egypt as your friend.

However it may not be a good idea to step over the border to meet friends just now- maybe he is dying?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...sinai-1.324228

Ariel Sharon was indicted for what exactly ? please try to use facts in your posts.

Israel is not immune to corruption. but It's way cleaner than any Arab country. Democracy & free press have a lot to do with it. Two things that Castro's country sorely lacks.

So you don't know the name of the Arab country who doesnt have a violent past. What is your knowledge about the middle east ?

Silwan or Kfar Ha-Shiloach as it was also called before the Jordanian occupation - the issue was already discussed here and your argument was refuted. Not a single arab owner there was expelled. The U.N decided to give jewish houses to arab refugees. now the houses were re-bought by jews.

Arabs are buying apartments in jerusalem all the time.

Gaza is ruled by Hamas - a violent, genocidal, Islamo fasicst regime. But you are busy demonising Israel.

British soldiers did much worse things in Iraq & Afghanistan - does that make the U.K an apartheid state ?

Your definition of aparthied is simply wrong.

Why knock Egypt Pashosh? They just helped they are giving you information to kill palestinians Mohammad Namnam in Gaza and Israel has a good gas deal going with them.

So pray tell, wherer did you get the idea to read that book and what's more to announce it as a good idea for others to read?


http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...030671,00.html

Master of propaganda...the "open city myth". Luckily some clever haaretz journalists tried to see if a palestinian could buy property in Jerusalem.
As the article says, most palestinians can't due to discriminating laws.

Apartheid: any system or practice that separates people according to race, caste, etc.
I think that everything in Israel shows the segregation even in the law. Do you know about the law project aiming at removing citizenship to arab israeli? It's unique in the world, it would create people without any nationality. Interesting article on that in Haaretz.

Dear Sirs

I saw this recently and it made me think of this.

I wonder if the two might perhaps be related?

Yours etc

Which article shows which laws stop arabs from buying property in Jerusalem ?

The article talks about revoking Azmi Bishara's citizenship if convicted of spying for Hizzballa. so ? whats the big deal ? the article also says: "in a third of European countries, including Denmark, France and England, it is a legitimate sanction. ". Terrible - Israel can be as bad as Denamrk !

"Apartheid: any system or practice that separates people according to race, caste, etc" - You mean like in Lebanon ? or Saudi ? Syria ? Turkish occupied cyprus ? all of the above practice such seperation (or worse). not Israel.

Tell you what - get on a plane to Israel (easyjet reduced the prices !) and go to Tel aviv, Haifa or Jerusalem. see for yourself how Arabs and jews mix.

Isnt it amusing to see how "Palestinians" stop being palestinians and become "Arab Israeli" and vice versa.

My sister went as a tourist, She wanted to see the Arab quarter on a tour, they wouldn't allow her to go where she wanted to go and she got very upset. I am sure that Palestinians would prefer to be in Palestine and not referred to as Arab Israelis, as it was before the occupation. I guess that the flip side is calling Israelis Jewish Palestinians? Is Pashosh in reality a Jewish Palestinian?

ok
here is where i stand and please dont make more comments about my sentence structure.
I was born in Israel , my forefathers came to Israel before it was a state
and what i know is that Israel has been the historical homeland of the jewish people since centuries, this is well documented in archeological findings,
Jerusalem was build by a Jewish king, David, and the temple too, which is now the famous mosque, the dome of the rock.
The fact is that when Israel, then palestine was occupied by the Turkish empire Jews could not pray at the wailing wall, which is the last remaining wall of the temple.
Only when the Jews took over could ALL religions could practice their faith.
.
The fact is that i was raised in the education system never ever learning anything but how much we want peace
I never heard anything racist about Arabs in school
the Israeli poets i studied, as Yehoda Amichai, seek peace and mourn war and its victims
On the other hand the Palestinians voted into office extreme terrorists
AND teach their kids to hate jews.
Te reality is that the jews had been kicked out of their homeland thousands of years ago and had no where else to go so they went HOMe-
Nazi Germany wanted the Jews to go to Palestine , they declared , but on the other hand cooperated with the Arabs who wanted to murder the Jews there-
Zionism is not terror it is simply the wish of the Jews to go back to their homeland.
How many of you know of the millions of Jews kicked out of Arab lands ?
or forced to become moslems ?
I think antisemitism is so deep that people are blind to what is going on in the middle east
The jews have no place to go and this is their historical home.
If you are religious, the bible is full of quotes about the connection to the land
if you are not religious, archeology takes care of the evidence;
there is a long history between the Jews and the land.
Palestinians are not different than any other Arab nation living there
however
they should have every right to live peacefully side by side with Israel but they continue to reject compromises or peaceful solutions.

I know this for a fact that most Israelis are not extremists and just want to live in peace in their land .

In any case the Arabs will have you believe that Jews are settlers that are foreign to the area, that is far from the truth.


As for jews being terrorists in the 40s before Israel was established you should know there were different groups resisting the British varying politically however contrary to the moslem world the moderate socialist stream won over , there was a strong resistance to violence.
Therefore there are no extremists ruling Israel, and if there are some politicans who are not as tolerant the mainstream in Israel ,here is a large OPEN debate.
The Majority support a peaceful solution to this problem
but lets get the history clear
archeological findings and fair and square purchases of land validate the jews right to live in Israel.
The Moslem world has many lands and several holy cities , mecca and medina etc
the Jews have only ONE , jerusalem.
i dont know any israeli that would not be willing to compromise had there been a chance for peace-

At the moment despite jimmy carter and his distortion
there is no one to talk to because the palestinians insist on voting for a very extreme racist group, the Hamas,with strong ties to Iran.

Israel did not invent the ties to Iran

Israel has open press and if you go online and read www.haaretz.com
you will witness open discussion that is absent in the Moslem world.

The moslem world used to be the most advanced at the time when europe was in the dark middle ages but nowadays it has been hijacked by extremists who abuse women or anyone who dares to speak out.

I am very proud that we have open communication and discussion and a very wide spectrum of opinions.

Had the palestinains put down their weapons they could have had peace but they insisted on smuggling weapon and using violence
and educating their kids to hate and kill
you can see this documented, it is not a myth ;
small children marching as soldiers told to murder iis nothing strange to this world.

At the same time the Israelis have not a lot of choice when missiles are sent to our territory and there is no sign of peace.

We are not an empire, nor the USA or anything close to that size
but a tiny strip of land amongst a huge sea of angry Moslems.

Israel has overcome against the odds countless attempts to be destroyed
but the worst war for me is reading all those lies and hate against Israel.

What would happen if the Arabs succeeded and Israel would be destroyed?

Palestine would be just another branch of Iran or extremists.

But somehow Israel survives and continues to share technology, computer knowledge , medical knowledge , culture, etc . with the world

IT is a fact that Israeli arabs have the hightest literacy rate
and best health system .

If someone was sending missiles to you , what would you do ?

May i remind you all that even though the Nazis and their european allies had murdered six million jews not too long ago no jew turned to violence against the Germans, they went to Palestine because there was no where else to go and they did not want another war but were forced
to fight to survive.

Our entire culture is based on a deep hope and wish for peace
however the reality is that we dont want to be like Tibet and live in exile
it is also impossible to ignore antisemitism and it is irrational and without any excuse

As for the Palestinians , they should be able to live in peace , they should be able to live in dignity and i hope that more can be acheived once they realize they can trust Israel.

The problem is people dont really know what israel is like
you should go and visit and see for yourself
I for one can never really hate Moslems even though i have seen the result of terrorist acts and know people who have lost loved ones
i know the other side suffers too but i can never make declarations of wanting to kill them like they do of us.
That is the big difference between the mentality and philiosophy which is the result of the value system upon which the people have been raised.


No one wants to kill but no one also wants to be killed again.
I hope it will one day stop but first both sides must want peace
above all and both sides must learn to talk without the US or anyone else
but as people who both belong there , accepting eachother.

p.s.
happy, your sister had a rare case
i have never heard of anyone not being allowed to go to the arab part of jerusalem lm unless there was a violent incident and they closed off the area to find the violent party
The Israeli arabs, ask them, what they prefer.,
hamas who murders anyone who objects to them
or israel that still despite errors has a democratic legal system and arab respresentatives in the parliment
No arab land has jewish representatives, in fact some arab lands do not allow jews at all like saudi arabia , and i think the list is long

A few weeks ago I sat with a family for dinner. They never said but I realized that they were Jewish. The son told us of an Iranian Jewish friend, who recently left the country to study in the US. He retruned often to see his Jewish relatives. The relatives chose to stay in Iran. Iran has Jewish members of parliament. Their existence is protected by an order from Khomeini.
Before and after the revolution Iran has done deals with Israel. You talk of Iranians and seem to lump them in with Arabs, that they want to kill Jews. Some do, just as some Jews want to kill Arabs, but so did a lot of Europeans. Throughout History Europeans have killed and victimized Jews. Should you not feel the same way about Europeans?

I appreciate your input and beleive that you are genuine but a lot of what you write has already been discussed in this thread- it goes back a long way, the words are very familiar such as

Arabs are not all one, nor do they share the same beliefs. I have met enough Arabs to know that. The Palestinians-which land or holy city do they have?
The bible talks of many tribes and people and arks and the parting of seas, but before the British mandate (my father was there at that time) it was Palestine. I don't believe that God gave the land to anyone, God is not a real estate agent or landowner.
When my father got there towards the end of the war, he told me that it was Palestine.
The attitude of the Jews he explained as follows:

No-one cared what the Palestinians thought, because at that time it was a convenient way to off-load the European Jewish problem., but the land was not theirs to give or mandate away, but then the Brits are famous for that!

We have all been brainwashed to a degree, but we all have the responsibility to seek the truth. There are so many mis-perceptions- that Iranians hate Jews. At present many Iranians hate the Lebanese and those in Gaza, for siphoning off money from Iran. Some Iranians do hate Zionists and Blacks and Arabs and English and Americans.....

Some Arabs hate other Arabs. It is a lot more complicated than Jews against Arabs but for political reasons of course it is better to indoctrinate others into thinking so, enabling them to manipulate the situation. It is a battle for control of the Middle-East, for power and greed and corrupt ideologies where religion and race are effective motivators.

No but I know a Jewish country who does have a violent present!

Yes this is loooooong time ago.

Difficult to feel differently when someone takes your land (not buy, steal) and gives it to someone from his own ''clan''.


So Let's come back to that homeland and kick the people there out to take back something written in a Book based on beliefs? If the Native American decide to kick out all the whitties in America, would it be ok for them to go back to every countried they came from 500 years ago? And take lands from others saying that his grand grand grand father had that land back then?

If the Native American decided to go back to where they are from thousand of years ago (India, Mongolia, Turkey) on the same base, would it be ok?

They could have bought an island somewhere without taking anything away from anyone.
No again a Jew who loves to mixed this two concepts. People are not Antisemitism, they are antizionism. BIG difference!

Based on a book...

Why do you think they are angry? Because the didn't have their morning coffee?

Read your history better. They didn't send them back to ''their'' land with innocent thought!

Nazis... this is so out right now! Again something who always comes out when someone tries to defend Israel politics... Do you believe that what the Gouvernment and the army are doing better now? Google Palestine, Gaza Band and look at what kind of pictures come up. Google houses in Palestine, and houses in Israel and see the difference...
By keeping them behind a wall? By refusing them acces to the city? By refusing them acces to medications? Health? THAT for sure will help them get back their faith in Israel!


Thousands of jews have their eyes open on what is going on and DON'T support Israel in any way!

How come?

Why that if Israel is so good and want so much peace? Why so many Jews thought that Zionism wasn't a good thing to do? Why so many still don't agree about what is going on there?

Tell me, please I need to understand! Why so many jews don't agree, don't accept and manifest against Israel???

Nil it is very sad that you hate israel so much you are blind to the hate that many moslems have towards eachother and towards israel
obviously you have moslem connections but so do i and none hate Israel
what would you do if someone wanted to kill you and your family ?
Look at how the Moslem world is full of violence but rather than see that you look at Israel because it is so easy to hate Israel.
If Israel would not protect itself the Hamas would wipe out Israel
I know you dont care and you only see one aspect but you should see the whole picture , how people murder eachother in many lands that are not Israel and for no reason, no reason at all.
Turkey massacred the armenians and the kurds but i have met many wonderful turkish people but i dont accept from anyone antisemitic nonsense such as this
Yes, happy, not to generalize but do you see what happens in Iran?
i see that the Iranian people are victims of their regime however
no one would accept this reality anywhere else
why do they then ?

Nil you are antisemitic and i feel sorry for you
because if you really cared about moslem people , you would try to influence them towards peaceful ways rather than blame iSRAEL for fighting to exist

I dont want to be racist but just consider what the jewish people contribute to the world in terms of culture, medicine, religion ( jesus, moses etc)

as for god, i also dont believe that he favors anyone but i do believe

that people who care about others and seek peace and seek

to really want to live with others are blessed

and people who fight to exist physically are not cursed

but if they fight to take over what is not theirs , they will lose

and they do

otherwise you can not explain how tiny israel wins agains all those arab armies

and no weapon theory whatever explains it

the arab nations with all their oil and money can not buy themselves
a victory because they need to go back to being the enlightened culture they were once and not blame israel for extremism terror and ignorance

luckily not all think like tha<t

sadly western people sometimes are even more ignorant and influenced by biased media

I added the link.


If you read the article from a prof in law you'll see that it's applied in very exceptional cases and only on people who have dual citizenship. Funny the jewish terrorist who killed Rabin is still keeping his citizenship. Any discrimination similar to apartheid here?
It's clear that you haven't been to Lebanon or Tureky to label them as apartheid. You need to upgrade your knowledge.
Yes I go there quite regularly for business. I know many people from both sides. I am sorry to give a wake-up call: most of arab israeli live in a discriminating environment. By the way, you still did not answer to my reference about the 10 Laws discriminating against arabs in israel (Adala association). I provide proofs and reference, you just provide hot air and a pinch of salt of apartheid.

__________________
Resist, support, donate: ACLU
They tried to bury us, they did not know that we are seeds (Mexican proverb)

Sorry starshine but I think you are completely missing the point. Try to come with arguments and intelligent discussions. It's obvious that you have not a single clue about muslims, arab world and worse about arab israeli.

Take the opportunity to think out of the box and try to understand that people who disagree with israel's policy does not mean they are antisemitic. If it's the only argument you have then I feel pity for you.

By the way, in international law a religious book talking about a god and some people in the desert is not considered as legit to claim any land...anywhere.

__________________
Resist, support, donate: ACLU
They tried to bury us, they did not know that we are seeds (Mexican proverb)

Starshine - Reading what you have written, I think what you have completely failed to grasp, is the concept that not everyone agrees that Jews have a right to live in an Israeli State using justification based on the writings of a book written God-knows - pardon the pun - however many thousands of years ago.

Israel was occupied long before the Roman Diaspora, and thus one could argue that they lost any claim to sovereignty based on this rationale a while ago.

This means that the Israeli invasion of Palestine is strictly a "modern" phenomenon. Based on this, many people feel that Israel's actions are questionable at best, war crimes at worst.

Until you understand this, you and your fellow Zionists will continue to blindly accuse everyone who doesn’t agree with you of ignorance and anti-Semitism, using the Nazi trump card as you have done, all the while maintaining your subtle apartheid system. I've always wondered why Jews as a nation who were so badly treated in WWII behave the same way as their bullies did - I guess the logic that the bullied become the bullies.

The irony of your comments is clearly lost on you, and suggests that you are not about to consider any other view bar your own. You see, while I can understand the rationale and desire amongst Jews to have a "home" or State of Israel, I do not believe you can understand any criticism of Israel's aggression towards its neighbours and Palestinians.

TBH, I don't really expect you to understand - let alone agree - any of what I have written.

__________________
Never let right or wrong get in the way of a good opinion

And I'm sure when the Arabs stop talking about the past, the Israelis will too

I'm sorry, whose land? Before Israel, Britain ran it, before them it was the Ottoman Empire... I've never heard of a sovereign Palestinian state so I can be damn sure nothing was ever "taken".




It's a great point - and you're right, it wouldn't be OK for the Jews to enter what is now Israel and "kick out" a load of Palestinians. But right or wrong, we are where we are now. So if you're right that the Native Americans cannot "kick the whities" out of America, and that "white people" don't have automatic citizenship rights to UK, Ireland etc, surely you agree that the Palestinians don't have a "right of return"?


If the Native American decided to go back to where they are from thousand of years ago (India, Mongolia, Turkey) on the same base, would it be ok?



Again, they were allocated that land by Britain and the UN variously. And Israel is the Jewish homeland not based on a book but based on not too distant history. They were kicked out repeatedly, moved around Europe and slaughtered and enslaved over a period of centuries. It is no accident that in the 1940s the whole world said it was a good/necessary idea to give a tiny strip of desert to the Jews. Much of the Arab anger comes from what a success Jewish European businessmen and women have made of what was a strip of malarial swamps.

Unfortunately this is rarely true. Anti-Zionism is used every day as a cover from anti-Semitism. This is really widely known, though it's true that it's impossible to tell which is which. The concepts aren't be mixed by the poster but by the Iranian President, Pakistan etc.


Again, it's really based on real history.


Much of it is jealousy. Cross the border from Syria to Israel and it'll feel like you went from the Stone Age to the 21st Century in the blink of an eye. It's also self perpetuating anger from poverty - it's the same impetus for youth becoming violent gang members, a longing to achieve legitimacy by creating a sense of the other.




No one is "behind a wall", just on the other side of the wall. I'm sure there won't be a wall when Palestinians stop firing rockets randomly into cities. If you're speaking about the flotilla, then the answer is this: a territory controlled by what is an internationally recognised terrorist government cannot be allowed to receive an unknown ship load of cargo. The who idea was ridiculous, and no country would allow it.

True - look at the 900 million or so Muslims who sink their heads in embarrassment at the Palestinian suicide bombers or Pakistani flag burners.

I don't believe this is true. Many Jews have a problem with how Israel conducts itself, there are many pacifists. I don't know any Jews who say that it was a mistake for Israel to exist.

No no no Carlos, you don't get to dictate what is "current" or "modern" and what qualifies as "ancient" and therefore should be forgotten. There are few Palestinians still alive from the 1940s and earlier - all the occupants of the land, Israelis and Palestinians were primarily born where they currently live. A right of return is a right of return, but saying that Israel is "modern" and so can be erased, whereas the Palestinians have been roaming around for 200 years before that so they have increased rights is incredibly arbitrary.

@economisto:

I am lost with your arguments. Sometimes when it's in the interest of your theory you accuse arabs of antisemitism and use it as main reason why they hate Israel. In another time when you need it for your theory you explain the hate of arabs for israel by the success it has. If I follow your argument and someone is antisemit he does not care about the success, it's just hatred.
I only see that in your mindset an apartheid country is a sign of success.