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  #981  
Old 12.11.2010, 09:29
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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@economisto:

I am lost with your arguments. Sometimes when it's in the interest of your theory you accuse arabs of antisemitism and use it as main reason why they hate Israel. In another time when you need it for your theory you explain the hate of arabs for israel by the success it has. If I follow your argument and someone is antisemit he does not care about the success, it's just hatred.
I only see that in your mindset an apartheid country is a sign of success.
I don't change my theories or explanations, but it is true that Israel's neighbours have many motivations. A lot of it is also governments encouraging their citizens to direct their anger towards Israel rather than against their own country. A common enemy acts to strength the Arab identity as well as the individual governments. There are a lot of forces at play here, but I believe that Israel is ethically just as bad as the Palestinians. However it just so happens that I find the arguments unbalanced in favour of the Palestinians on the EF.
  #982  
Old 12.11.2010, 09:33
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I don't change my theories or explanations, but it is true that Israel's neighbours have many motivations. A lot of it is also governments encouraging their citizens to direct their anger towards Israel rather than against their own country. A common enemy acts to strength the Arab identity as well as the individual governments. There are a lot of forces at play here, but I believe that Israel is ethically just as bad as the Palestinians. However it just so happens that I find the arguments unbalanced in favour of the Palestinians on the EF.
Yes It's nice to see your great sense of justice in action, heart warming. Facts are facts, we'll try to hide them to have a more balanced view.
I wonder why all countries condemned israel's colonization policy in east jerusalem. You should speak up!
  #983  
Old 12.11.2010, 09:34
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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No no no Carlos, you don't get to dictate what is "current" or "modern" and what qualifies as "ancient" and therefore should be forgotten. There are few Palestinians still alive from the 1940s and earlier - all the occupants of the land, Israelis and Palestinians were primarily born where they currently live. A right of return is a right of return, but saying that Israel is "modern" and so can be erased, whereas the Palestinians have been roaming around for 200 years before that so they have increased rights is incredibly arbitrary.
It is (arbitrary), and not quite what I meant. I don't believe that I said anything about a right to return nor that Israel could be erased.

Starshine's justification of having an Israeli State was based entirely on the Bible. Therefore all actions are justified (God given right, blah blah etc.).

I don't agree with that concept. Furthermore, I do believe that it has been used to cover up what under other circumstances people would be horrified by - this ground has been covered by others in this thread already, e.g. the balklands, random acts of aggression throughout Africa etc. etc. In some instances the "West" did something, in others not, as usually there is a political motivation behind the reason to intervene (whether right or wrong) - that is not the point I am trying to make.

Israel seems to be a particular example where, because there's this old book and a lot of "history" one demographic group of people has decided to make a home for itself, kicking out the present incumbents and treating them as second-class citizens.

Fine and dandy, but taking away the facade of justification based on an old book, shows what it really should be measured as - an invasion of another country. If you look at the recent history of it all, that is presicely what it was - a series of calculated military and political advances to get to where they are now.

I believe that this is the basis on which the State of Israel should be judged on.

Regarding right to return, at least one could find a few Palestinians who are still alive to go "home". One one would struggle to find an Jew who was still alive at the time of the Diaspora...

Unfortunately, the Israelis are too clever by half and know that they just need to dig in for all this to become "ancient history" rather than "living memory".
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  #984  
Old 12.11.2010, 09:52
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I added the link.
The article does show a single case of Israeli Arabs not allowed to buy in Jerusalem by law.

You still didn't find a single house owner in Silwan who was expelled.

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If you read the article from a prof in law you'll see that it's applied in very exceptional cases and only on people who have dual citizenship. Funny the jewish terrorist who killed Rabin is still keeping his citizenship. Any discrimination similar to apartheid here?
The terrorist who killed Rabin is in an Israeli jail. Bishara betrayed his country - the U.K hung people for less than that. after WW2.

Name 3 arabs (out of over 1,000,000) who were stripped of their Israeli citizneship in the last 30 years. If Israel is such a terrible country you should have no problems finding dotzen of examples.

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It's clear that you haven't been to Lebanon or ureky to label them as apartheid. You need to upgrade your knowledge.
Kurds & palestianinas are treated a lot worse in Turkey & Lebanon (respectively) than Arabs in Israel.

Lets follow your logic:
1. Arabs are discriminated against in Israel (I agree).
2. Therefore Israel is an Apartheid country. (I disagree, but let's continue)
3. Lots of Arabs & Muslim countries are much worse offenders than Israel.
=>
4. Therfore these countries are über-aparthied countries.


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Yes I go there quite regularly for business. I know many people from both sides. I am sorry to give a wake-up call: most of arab israeli live in a discriminating environment. By the way, you still did not answer to my reference about the 10 Laws discriminating against arabs in israel (Adala association). I provide proofs and reference, you just provide hot air and a pinch of salt of apartheid.
Arabs are discriminated against in Israel - for various reasons, not all are Israel's fault. Show another country who is being attacked by it's neighbors almost non-stop and still allows an ethnic minority which belongs to the enemy to live in such relative peace.

However: Arabs are treated in Israel a lot better than in any Arab country. Unlike you - they know what's it like to live under Arab (corrupt, violent, racist ) rule and chose otherwise.
  #985  
Old 12.11.2010, 10:38
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The article does show a single case of Israeli Arabs not allowed to buy in Jerusalem by law.

You still didn't find a single house owner in Silwan who was expelled.
You are suppoed to read the references posters provide. The wikipedia on Silwan is also full of information if you take time to read it.

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The terrorist who killed Rabin is in an Israeli jail. Bishara betrayed his country - the U.K hung people for less than that. after WW2.
What about Mordechai Vanunu. We live in 2010, forget WW2 and UK.

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Name 3 arabs (out of over 1,000,000) who were stripped of their Israeli citizneship in the last 30 years. If Israel is such a terrible country you should have no problems finding dotzen of examples.
Please read again what other posts write. I told you about the law project aimed at arab israeli exclusively to deny their citizenship.


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Kurds & palestianinas are treated a lot worse in Turkey & Lebanon (respectively) than Arabs in Israel.

Lets follow your logic:
1. Arabs are discriminated against in Israel (I agree).
2. Therefore Israel is an Apartheid country. (I disagree, but let's continue)
3. Lots of Arabs & Muslim countries are much worse offenders than Israel.
=>
4. Therfore these countries are über-aparthied countries.
What a flawed syllogism. We are talking about discriminating law not political rights......not granted to any citizen (jew, muslim or christian).

I know many moroccan and tunisian jews who own property and business in Morocco and Tunisia.


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Arabs are discriminated against in Israel - for various reasons, not all are Israel's fault. Show another country who is being attacked by it's neighbors almost non-stop and still allows an ethnic minority which belongs to the enemy to live in such relative peace.

(bla bla)
.
For you an israeli arab belongs to the enemy. Your enemy is the other ethnicity. This is a very clear statement from you! If this is not apartheid and racism, I don't know how we could name it otherwise! You just admitted that you are racist. You can't think about your fellow arab israeli citizen outside the ethnicity box.
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  #986  
Old 12.11.2010, 11:56
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Kurds & palestianinas are treated a lot worse in Turkey & Lebanon (respectively) than Arabs in Israel.
You should now update your informations about this.
  #987  
Old 12.11.2010, 12:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

[QUOTE=MrVertigo;1010213]You are suppoed to read the references posters provide. The wikipedia on Silwan is also full of information if you take time to read it.c
I asked for facts you bring quotes.

You failed to provide one name of an Arab property owner expelled.

1

one

less than 2.


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What about Mordechai Vanunu. We live in 2010, forget WW2 and UK.


Please read again what other posts write. I told you about the law project aimed at arab israeli exclusively to deny their citizenship.
What, no names of Arabs who lost their citizenship ?

The writer of the article must have borrowed your time machine - writing about what the law MIGHT do.

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What a flawed syllogism. We are talking about discriminating law not political rights......not granted to any citizen (jew, muslim or christian).

I know many moroccan and tunisian jews who own property and business in Morocco and Tunisia.
Do Kurds have a right to teach in Kurdish ? Can Palestinian become laywers and doctors in Lebanon ?

Should Israel treat its arab citizens the same as Morocco & Tunisia treated their Jewish citizens ? These countries had huge Jewish communities, where are they now ?

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For you an israeli arab belongs to the enemy. Your enemy is the other ethnicity. This is a very clear statement from you! If this is not apartheid and racism, I don't know how we could name it otherwise! You just admitted that you are racist. You can't think about your fellow arab israeli citizen outside the ethnicity box.
Facts:
1. Israel is surrounded by hostile arab country
2. Israel has a sizeable arab minority who identfies with the arabs outside israel.

Similar situations occur in India, Turkey, Russia - In all those countries the situation is a lot worse for the minorities within the country. What happend to the Germans in Poland & Chechoslovakia after ww2 ? how are the Russians treated in the Baltic countries ?
  #988  
Old 12.11.2010, 12:30
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

[QUOTE=Pashosh;1010400]
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how are the Russians treated in the Baltic countries ?
The situation's not really comparable. Most Russians were installed in the Baltic States during Soviet times as an effort to 'Russify' the republics. Arabs in Israel are not recent arrivals and have not been foisted on Israel by a dominant neighbour.
  #989  
Old 12.11.2010, 12:58
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

[QUOTE=Gastro Gnome;1010416]
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The situation's not really comparable. Most Russians were installed in the Baltic States during Soviet times as an effort to 'Russify' the republics. Arabs in Israel are not recent arrivals and have not been foisted on Israel by a dominant neighbour.
Recent being the keyword. Does it make a difference to someone born in Riga, who is discriminated against ?

I'm glad you see my point about the unlucky minorities in other countries.
  #990  
Old 12.11.2010, 13:11
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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You should now update your informations about this.
Information such as:

Perhaps the large number of Kurds killed by the Turkish army ?
The Turkish bombing in Iraq ?
or perhaps about the current trial of 151 kurds for "violating the unity of the state" ?
How about the few minutes that Kurdish is allotted on Radio & TV ?

In all of the above Israel behaved better than Turkey.
  #991  
Old 12.11.2010, 13:18
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

When you say that Jews in Isreal just want peace and the muslims are the one teaching hate and fights against them....

Here is one picture you can't denie.... Maybe you didn't learn it at school, but some kids do learn it.



Open you eyes of what is the real reality in Israel! Look on internet the amount of informations and groups on and against the occupation. It says a lot!
  #992  
Old 12.11.2010, 13:25
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Information such as:

Perhaps the large number of Kurds killed by the Turkish army ?
The Turkish bombing in Iraq ?
or perhaps about the current trial of 151 kurds for "violating the unity of the state" ?
How about the few minutes that Kurdish is allotted on Radio & TV ?

In all of the above Israel behaved better than Turkey.
You are a Troll, I told you that before and I keep telling it. You take a piece of information and use it the way you want.

Yes Turkey did murder Kurds. I know the story, my in-laws are the firsts victims of it and got enough lucky to get out of there.

Now, today, right now, look at the reality. One side you have the civilians and the other the PKK. Majority of Kurds do not support the PKK, they are terrorists. The Turkish gouvernment are after them.

Look at the quantity of Kurds on the scene in Istanbul. We have now TV shows, channels in Kurdish. We have some of the most famous singers, actors talking openly of being kurdish and no one is now discriminated to be kurdish.

The past was a shame, now, slowly it gets better. The present looks much better then ever!

What do you have to say about the Palestinian's situation? What did your gouvernment did to make their life better and to include them?

Something you can't claim.
  #993  
Old 12.11.2010, 13:29
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Nil - please refrain from name calling. your kids will see it one day.

The current trial (taking place today in "Constantinople") of Kurdish politicians is a sign of the state of civil rights in Turkey.

The PKK is mother theresa's good looking sister when compared to Hamas.

Palestinians in Israel have better lives than all but the super-rich in arab countries.
  #994  
Old 12.11.2010, 13:31
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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When you say that Jews in Isreal just want peace and the muslims are the one teaching hate and fights against them....

Here is one picture you can't denie.... Maybe you didn't learn it at school, but some kids do learn it.



Open you eyes of what is the real reality in Israel! Look on internet the amount of informations and groups on and against the occupation. It says a lot!
Come on, you can do better then that. It's just the same of posting a Palistinian child with and AK47 and saying that this is what they teach them in schools.

There's little point in debating this topic as there are no black and white answers. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other so there's no chance in coming to a conclusion. I've never met anyone with strong views on this topic to actually change their mind following a debate.

The problem is that so many children from both sides are taught to hate the others from such a young age that it's all they ever know. Unless this changes there will never be any hope for peace in the region.
  #995  
Old 12.11.2010, 13:40
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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You are a Troll, I told you that before and I keep telling it. You take a piece of information and use it the way you want.
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Nil - please refrain from name calling. your kids will see it one day.

The current trial (taking place today in "Constantinople") of Kurdish politicians is a sign of the state of civil rights in Turkey.

The PKK is mother theresa's good looking sister when compared to Hamas.

Palestinians in Israel have better lives than all but the super-rich in arab countries.

You are doing it again!

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Come on, you can do better then that. It's just the same of posting a Palistinian child with and AK47 and saying that this is what they teach them in schools.

There's little point in debating this topic as there are no black and white answers. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other so there's no chance in coming to a conclusion. I've never met anyone with strong views on this topic to actually change their mind following a debate.

The problem is that so many children from both sides are taught to hate the others from such a young age that it's all they ever know. Unless this changes there will never be any hope for peace in the region.
That was exactly my point! Starshine said that they don't teach that to jewish kids. I gave one picture who shows the opposite. I never denied what the palestinians kids learn...
  #996  
Old 12.11.2010, 15:39
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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You failed to provide one name of an Arab property owner expelled.

1

one

less than 2.
Read! Read instead of filling the space with empty sentences. Or do you want only to stay in the realm of imagination by reading novels.


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What, no names of Arabs who lost their citizenship ?

The writer of the article must have borrowed your time machine - writing about what the law MIGHT do.
As I stated in my post, it's a project for a law that started after the arab knesset member who was on the Gaza fleet. Remember?

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Do Kurds have a right to teach in Kurdish ? Can Palestinian become laywers and doctors in Lebanon ?

Should Israel treat its arab citizens the same as Morocco & Tunisia treated their Jewish citizens ? These countries had huge Jewish communities, where are they now ?
- Every year during may 5000-6000 of jews from everywhere flock for the ritual pilgrimage of LaGhriba in Djerba (tunisia) which hosts the oldest synagogue of africa (2500y old). Many jews are still living and working in Tunisia. Most of them went to France and Israel. But also hundred thousands of muslim tunisians immigrated to France for work. So why an exception for jews?
- Morocco has a very old and strong community protected by Mohamed V during WWII while the jews in France were sent to death. Many successful moroccan jews in France claim their attachment to morocco.
It's only you who see violence and hatred.
If you could show similar tolerance, you'd have better sleep.

Since you are behaving like a policeman, I will not give you the name of all jews living in morocco & tunisia. Don't dare to ask.

(....)
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  #997  
Old 12.11.2010, 15:56
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Read! Read instead of filling the space with empty sentences. Or do you want only to stay in the realm of imagination by reading novels.
I read yod could not find a single one. neither could you.

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As I stated in my post, it's a project for a law that started after the arab knesset member who was on the Gaza fleet. Remember?
same as above - you can't fidn a single example to prove your point.

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- Every year during may 5000-6000 of jews from everywhere flock for the ritual pilgrimage of LaGhriba in Djerba (tunisia) which hosts the oldest synagogue of africa (2500y old). Many jews are still living and working in Tunisia. Most of them went to France and Israel. But also hundred thousands of muslim tunisians immigrated to France for work. So why an exception for jews?
- Morocco has a very old and strong community protected by Mohamed V during WWII while the jews in France were sent to death. Many successful moroccan jews in France claim their attachment to morocco.
It's only you who see violence and hatred.
If you could show similar tolerance, you'd have better sleep.

Since you are behaving like a policeman, I will not give you the name of all jews living in morocco & tunisia. Don't dare to ask.

(....)
Of course - You can't name names becuase of me. The Jews left because they ddint like the food anymore... I've have yet to hear of a single jew who moved back to Morocco. I'm sure you have the name on file.

You find only faults with Israel, while far worse regimes do no draw your ire.
  #998  
Old 12.11.2010, 16:02
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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You are suppoed to read the references posters provide. The wikipedia on Silwan is also full of information if you take time to read it.


What about Mordechai Vanunu. We live in 2010, forget WW2 and UK.


Please read again what other posts write. I told you about the law project aimed at arab israeli exclusively to deny their citizenship.



What a flawed syllogism. We are talking about discriminating law not political rights......not granted to any citizen (jew, muslim or christian).

I know many moroccan and tunisian jews who own property and business in Morocco and Tunisia.



For you an israeli arab belongs to the enemy. Your enemy is the other ethnicity. This is a very clear statement from you! If this is not apartheid and racism, I don't know how we could name it otherwise! You just admitted that you are racist. You can't think about your fellow arab israeli citizen outside the ethnicity box.
Either you were busy, or it took you a long time to read the article , surprising when you read that book in such a short time- I guess the book must be a really really easy read! It was a very interesting article if you like we can go point by point through it I will start posting excerpts.
  #999  
Old 12.11.2010, 16:02
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Of course - You can't name names becuase of me. The Jews left because they ddint like the food anymore... I've have yet to hear of a single jew who moved back to Morocco. I'm sure you have the name on file.

You find only faults with Israel, while far worse regimes do no draw your ire.
For sure you also have also no clue about the jews of north africa and heir history. I invite you to spend 1 week in Djerba in May during the pilgrimage. You'll be very surprised and realize how ignorant you were on that matter.

Please remember (do you have alzheimer?) that this is ISrael-Palestine thread not any other country problem thread. If you want to complain about egypt, lebanon etc please start a thread I'll follow you there as well. Be my guest.
  #1000  
Old 12.11.2010, 16:42
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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For sure you also have also no clue about the jews of north africa and heir history. I invite you to spend 1 week in Djerba in May during the pilgrimage. You'll be very surprised and realize how ignorant you were on that matter.

Please remember (do you have alzheimer?) that this is ISrael-Palestine thread not any other country problem thread. If you want to complain about egypt, lebanon etc please start a thread I'll follow you there as well. Be my guest.
You make so many personal assumptions about me -and even though you are proven wrong time after time, you keep making them.

My family members & friends parents had to flee from Egypt, Morocco & other "tolerant" Arab countries. Some go back to visit - Compared to the locals they enjoy amazing liberties and are very rich.They come back and thank their lucky stars their ancestors were kicked out of those countries.

They can't claim their possessions there, though - you see ,the tolerance is only good for tourists.

The Palestinian- Israeli conflict is only one part of the wider Arab Israeli conflict. Elementary - considering the Palestinian nation was invented after Colour TV. Until 1967 all Palestinians were proud members of the proud Arab nation.
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