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Old 14.11.2010, 17:42
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Ok, as Nil & Mr. Vertigo can't proivde examples for their arguments, let move on:

Imagine a Palestinian state in the WB&G (West Bank & Gaza) - "Full state", with an Army, Airforce & Billag.

This country would be ruled by Hamas (or at leat - Hamas will be a major party), and will be another arab country.

Would this make the situation better or worse ?
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Old 14.11.2010, 17:47
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Ok, as Nil & Mr. Vertigo can't proivde examples for their arguments, let move on:
It is sad really that you can't read properly because I did provide plenty of exemples but as a good troll, you bring nothing deep beside putting oil on fire.
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Old 14.11.2010, 17:51
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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It is sad really that you can't read properly because I did provide plenty of exemples but as a good troll, you bring nothing deep beside putting oil on fire.
Pashosh discards references that hurt because he refuses to see a certain side of reality. He has a selective approach of "proofs"....that only serves his interest and point of view.
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Old 14.11.2010, 17:56
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

What is beyond understanding, is the amount of Jewish associations, blogs and organisations who fights for a free Palestine.

I still had no answer from those 3 here about how that is possible if nothing's wrong is going on there, if no discrimination and no apartheid is made.
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  #1045  
Old 14.11.2010, 17:57
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Ok, as Nil & Mr. Vertigo can't proivde examples for their arguments, let move on:

Imagine a Palestinian state in the WB&G (West Bank & Gaza) - "Full state", with an Army, Airforce & Billag.

This country would be ruled by Hamas (or at leat - Hamas will be a major party), and will be another arab country.

Would this make the situation better or worse ?
This is incorrect (and a Straw Man, but enough of that). Parties like Hamas (Al Qaeda etc) flourish due to poverty and desperation. The West Bank is comparatively quite a nice place which is why Hamas don't exist there. If Gaza were green, beautiful and rich, Hamas would disappear overnight (well, they might keep the name, but not the bombs). Rich people with nice houses and good schools have too much to lose to have idealistic causes. And I don't see why the Territories will ever have an Air Force, so there's no need to be alarmist.
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  #1046  
Old 14.11.2010, 18:02
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

This is what I have seen of the west bank.

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/...ael-its-hamas/
  #1047  
Old 14.11.2010, 18:04
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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This is what I have seen of the west bank.

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/...ael-its-hamas/
do you know that there is a blockade on gaza? Are you aware of that at least?
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Old 14.11.2010, 18:05
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Are you aware that around 200 rockets a day are fired from Gaza?
  #1049  
Old 14.11.2010, 18:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

The Levant is just the easternmost flank of the Balkans (and for exactly the same reason). One shouldn't expect any objectivity from anyone who's actually from there, no matter which side they're on.

  #1050  
Old 14.11.2010, 18:08
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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This is what I have seen of the west bank.

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/...ael-its-hamas/
It's true, the West Bank is a comparatively nice place, but the implication on the linked website is that the West Bank owes its niceness to still being under Israel control. Which is crazy. The West Bank has Jordan (basically a Palestinian state) covering half it's border. It has a fresh, bountiful river, more land, fertile green fields and access to Jerusalem. The balance was always tipped in favour of WB, and the disparity just grew and grew until Gaza went into freefall.
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  #1051  
Old 14.11.2010, 18:10
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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This is incorrect (and a Straw Man, but enough of that). Parties like Hamas (Al Qaeda etc) flourish due to poverty and desperation. The West Bank is comparatively quite a nice place which is why Hamas don't exist there. If Gaza were green, beautiful and rich, Hamas would disappear overnight (well, they might keep the name, but not the bombs). Rich people with nice houses and good schools have too much to lose to have idealistic causes. And I don't see why the Territories will ever have an Air Force, so there's no need to be alarmist.
Nil claimed she knows many palestinians thrown out of their homes at the threat of an Israeli gun.

Vertigo claims that he knows of people expelled from their homes in Silwan (and that arabs were stripped of their Israeli citizenship)

All I ask for is a concrete examples - 3 names, that's all. seeing that none were provided you can draw your own conclusions

Hamas is actually quite strong in the west bank - if elextions were held there today, Hamas would win a large part of the votes. Anyway: financial prosperity is no guarantee against Facist/xenophobic parties (see the Wilders/SVP's Ivan thread). I'm sure you know of a few "green, beautiful and rich" countries which were ruled by Hamas-like parties.

A palestinian state will be ruled like any other arab country - would it enhance the lives of it's citizens and neighbours ?

I don't want Israel to rule people who don't wish it - but the first concern is for Israel to be secure. A palestinian state west of the Jordan is no panacea.
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  #1052  
Old 14.11.2010, 18:13
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Are you aware that around 200 rockets a day are fired from Gaza?
it's bad...bad bad bad.
But it's the proof that all the blockade and bombing on Gaza won't bring peace. Real peace talks with AP is the best way to remove Hamas. People voted for Hamas not because they like them but it's the only alternative after AP lost credibility.
  #1053  
Old 14.11.2010, 18:19
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Nil claimed she knows many palestinians thrown out of their homes at the threat of an Israeli gun.

Vertigo claims that he knows of people expelled from their homes in Silwan (and that Singapore is a Muslim state)

All I ask for is a concrete examples - 3 names, that's all. seeing that none were provided you can draw your own conclusions

Hamas is actually quite strong in the west bank - if elextions were held there today, Hamas would win a large part of the votes. Anyway: financial prosperity is no guarantee against Facist/xenophobic parties (see the Wilders/SVP's Ivan thread). I'm sure you know of a few "green, beautiful and rich" countries which were ruled by Hamas-like parties.

A palestinian state will be ruled like any other arab country - would it enhance the lives of it's citizens and neighbours ?
I don't think rattling off Mohammad Al Bizir, Salman Abu Bakar and Ahmed bin Husseini (a Shia for a bit of spice ) would make much of a difference. You're calling her a liar, she's almost certainly unable to prove it on a forum, let's leave it at that. Same for Mr Vertigo, although Singapore is a Corporatist state if anything (and if you go there, visit the Penny Black for a pint of Murphy's - surreal).

Hamas doesn't need elections to gain power - they're relatively strong in the WB because it actually isn't that great there and the fates of Gaza have a big impact on day to day life in the WB.

It's terribly tough to paint all Arab states together. If we were looking for a model of how a prosperous, stable Palestinian state might be, I'd pick Jordan. Culturally and demographically it's almost as Palestinian as you can get. Palestinians are the most urbane and educated Arabs around - go to Saudi and you'll find Palestinians running most of the businesses (as "Operations Managers" while Sheikh Mohammed bin Mohammed bin Ahmadia races jet powered cars in the dunes with the title of "Chairman"). They have no rights in Saudi and get kicked out with nothing after a few years. I have an optimistic view of a future Palestinian state, but nothing can exist without removing the desperation of the man in the street. As we all know, desperation drives us to do crazy things.
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Old 14.11.2010, 18:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Nil claimed she knows many palestinians thrown out of their homes at the threat of an Israeli gun.

Vertigo claims that he knows of people expelled from their homes in Silwan (and that arabs were stripped of their Israeli citizenship)

All I ask for is a concrete examples - 3 names, that's all. seeing that none were provided you can draw your own conclusions

Hamas is actually quite strong in the west bank - if elextions were held there today, Hamas would win a large part of the votes. Anyway: financial prosperity is no guarantee against Facist/xenophobic parties (see the Wilders/SVP's Ivan thread). I'm sure you know of a few "green, beautiful and rich" countries which were ruled by Hamas-like parties.

A palestinian state will be ruled like any other arab country - would it enhance the lives of it's citizens and neighbours ?

I don't want Israel to rule people who don't wish it - but the first concern is for Israel to be secure. A palestinian state west of the Jordan is no panacea.
I don't understand what your tactic is Pashosh. If you took a few seconds to read the links and references I posted, you wouldn't be writing such lies. I mentioned Singapore as a successful state despite the 20% muslims. I fear that your hate for muslims and arabs makes you lose your lucidity.
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Old 14.11.2010, 18:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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. It has a fresh, bountiful river, more land, fertile green fields and access to Jerusalem. The balance was always tipped in favour of WB, and the disparity just grew and grew until Gaza went into freefall.
The Jordan river is a fresh & bountiful river ? if only...

Who are the people you mentioned ?

Maybe the palestinians would manage to have a well run state. That would be the first one of 22 - not the best odds.

Jordan is a nice country who won the lottery of history - a dynastiy of smart rulers. But can anyone guarantee that the current king won't be the last Hashemite to rule ? (nice touch that - naming the country after your family, only in the Middle east).

Jordan was very near collapse in 1970 - thanks to some palestinians.

But if they agree to change the countries name to Palestine (being a majority)- this might work as a medium term solution.
  #1056  
Old 14.11.2010, 18:30
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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... the West Bank.... has a fresh, bountiful river, more land, fertile green fields and access to Jerusalem. The balance was always tipped in favour of WB, and the disparity just grew and grew until Gaza went into freefall.
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Anyway: financial prosperity is no guarantee against Facist/xenophobic parties (see the Wilders/SVP's Ivan thread). I'm sure you know of a few "green, beautiful and rich" countries which were ruled by Hamas-like parties.
...

I don't want Israel to rule people who don't wish it - but the first concern is for Israel to be secure. A palestinian state west of the Jordan is no panacea.
I know this cannot answer the question, but it provides at least a glimmer of hope.

A few years ago I was at a seminar on one aspect of the conflict, there was a research student there who had interviewed Sheikh Yassin (this was back in 2000 and the seminar was early 2001) and asked him directly if he could ever see there being peaceful coexistence. His reply was that for him, who had seen and been through so much, he could not foresee how he could ever change his feelings. But that if the situation did change and his children and grandchildren had some prosperity and something to lose, and had not been through so much suffering, maybe they could.

This was some time ago and rather a lot has happened since then and maybe the answer was never more than a wish, but this may be germane to the current point of discussion.
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Old 14.11.2010, 18:44
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The Jordan river is a fresh & bountiful river ? if only...
It's fresh water that makes the land green. It's enough.

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Who are the people you mentioned ?
I made them up

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Maybe the palestinians would manage to have a well run state. That would be the first one of 22 - not the best odds.
It is not for Israel to give and take statehood, especially on that basis. The Jews/Zionists had never had practise at Statehood - should they have been denied on that basis?

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Jordan is a nice country who won the lottery of history - a dynastiy of smart rulers. But can anyone guarantee that the current king won't be the last Hashemite to rule ? (nice touch that - naming the country after your family, only in the Middle east).
Jordan does have smart rulers, but also an essentially empty country for the Palestinians to occupy and thrive in (unless you count the indigenous nomadic berbers who prefer to be with their goats and camels). The Hashemi dynasty was kicked out of the Hijab and given an empty patch of desert - it's a wise and logical move to name that patch after themselves.


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But if they agree to change the countries name to Palestine (being a majority)- this might work as a medium term solution.
So Jordan should pay the price for an enlightened immigration policy while Israel managed to maintain it's standing as a "jewish state" by refusing migration? Nah. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, it's been too long for either Jordan or Israel to be territorially compromised based on history - the only thing left is to take Gaza and the West Bank and create a strong, free, prosperous and sovereign Palestinian state. And ensure free and unimpeded access to the Holy sites of Jerusalem.
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Old 14.11.2010, 19:17
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Nil claimed she knows many palestinians thrown out of their homes at the threat of an Israeli gun.

Vertigo claims that he knows of people expelled from their homes in Silwan (and that arabs were stripped of their Israeli citizenship)

All I ask for is a concrete examples - 3 names, that's all. seeing that none were provided you can draw your own conclusions
If at least you were a funny guy...

I am not going to give you their name on an open forum, Are you nuts? I don't even give MY name on this forum.

Oh, yes! News Flash, Nil isn't my real name...

You keep telling that I don't answer any of your questions, which I do since days and I am asking you 1 question and you go all around to avoid to answer it.

Let's try again:

How you explain Jewish Associations, blogs and organisations fighting for a free palestine?
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Old 14.11.2010, 19:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I'm afraid I dont understand your post - You say that Jordan is an empty state, with a majority of palestinians, many of them educated & urbane (100% agree), ruled by foregners (ditto) - but allowing majority rule will be bad for it ?

Add to the equasion that Jordan is most of Palestine, as defined by the British mandate of 1920.

If free elections would be held today in Jordan - would the king win ?

However - A palestinian state in Jordan, with a strong anti israel agenda will be bad for Israeli security - which is a major reason for Jordan's current regime stability.

A prosperous palestinian state in the west bank - 80% of it are already in place. However, It relies heavily on Israeli security forces to keep Hamas down - remove them and Hamas will regain lost ground very quickly. Same as in Jordan - the Fatah regime knows who is the worst enemy: Hamas or Israel.
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Old 14.11.2010, 19:25
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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(...)
If free elections would be held today in Jordan - would the king win ?


(...)
First King to be elected in democratic process. You're catapulting the arabs in the 30th century....please slow down.
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