I wouldn't go there. I got temporarily banned for it. Very touchy area! Read back through this thread and you will find it.

The fact that this is not obvious to all speaks volumes about the general level of "Anti Zionism" in this forum.

Why did we have to wait for the brutal occupier of the Malvinas to mention it ?

DB, was the inclusion of Greeks a mistake?

And there's the key to the whole affair.

I'm not pro-Zionist. I wouldn't give a bollocks if every last Israeli was swept into the Mediterranean Sea by the assembled armies of Israel's Arab neigbours (like happened last time they tried it... ), except that trying to dodge the floating corpses would spoil my enjoyment of the Cypriot seaside. Neither am I pro-Arab, pro-Albanian, pro-Turkish and so on (although I will confess to some sympathy towards the irredentist aspirations of some of the Greeks, even if they are doomed to failure).

I'm just a humble student of Ottoman history who prefers to see the nonsense in the Levant as part of a much wider pattern, and who is disappointed to observe that most of his compatriots seem to think that there's something special about Israel.

The only thing that's special about Israel, when seen in the context of the rest of the post-Ottoman world, is the fact that it's populated by the very same people most Europeans have hated with a passion for most of the last 1500 years or so.

Funny that, aint it?

Not at all.

Go and count the mosques in Greece, then come back and tell me how tolerant they are of their minorities.

I would like to see a mixture of Palestininas and Israelis sharing the land. however I would also like to see the Christians return to the area including the Lebanon. We forget that Christians may also have a right to return. Nicolas Hayek who is Christian Lebanese ( Mr Swatch) just died. Why did he leave the Lebanon?

They may well have a right, but how many of them would actually want to?

I mean, Lebanese wine isn't bad, and the women are lovely, but it's hardly California, is it?

I don't think criticism of Israel makes one "Anti-Israeli" or "Anti-Zionist". Criticism can also be meant for the best intentions. I think the way the Palestinians are methodically driven to corner will only do Israel harm in the long run. You may not see or acknowledge any blowback now, but blowback will come in one form or another. Is what is happening to Palestinians something you would like to see happen to Israelis? If not, then stop it, for Israel's sake.

It doesn't make an individual anti-Israeli or anti-Zionist, but given the history of the Jews in Europe, the fact that Israel gets a disproportionate amount of attention for its sins compared to other, equally or more unpleasant, nations in the region suggests that there's something not entirely kosher about such criticism.

It's always interesting to compare the fate of any thread about Israel/Palestine, and any thread about Albania, Turkey or any of the other successor states to the Ottoman Empire that is started on the English Forum. Anyone would think that being nasty to minorities and having dubious designs on the neighbours' land was a uniquely Israeli habit...

Well, I never - so DB is an Argie! Long time ago - forgive and forget, I say

Higher expectations perhaps? I lived in jewish neighborhoods in Chicago and Los Angeles. The Jews I have knowm in the US have always displayed a lot of sensitivity to civil rights issues. I've always known them to side with the oppressed. Being cast as oppressors in this scenario does not look kosher to me at all.

I know the whole region is a mess. I am a bit aware of what happened to Beirut. But there are daming evidence of ethnic cleansing by Israel. Of all the people of the world, it is disheartening for me to see them commit it. Yes, I guess I am biased, but it is more toward the Jews than against them.

When young, I didn't really understand what my father meant when he said he was not anti-Jewish but he was anti-Zionist.

Whilst in Europe I would hesitate to tell anyone that I was anti-Zionist, not because I was worried about being condemned, but because so many would assume that I was antisemitic, and abhorrent to me, would start to sympathize. I feel that there is still a strong undercurrent of antisemitism in Europe.

In the US, especially the area I am in, where a large population are liberal Jewish, it is easier for me to express my beliefs. I can say that I am anti Netanyahu and Likud and I have many Jewish friends that sympathize with my views.

However I can not say that antisemitism is any less in the US as a whole; after all there is always this:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/...2741289717991/

I am trying to work out whether the answer to to the Israeli -Palestinian problem will be resolved by internal or external forces. I think it will be external, but I suppose I could be wrong.

I disagree. Just because there is more airing of the issues around Israel - assuming there is - does not mean that their actions are any better or worse than other things going on in the world, that we don't know about.

Maybe the media are biased. But are they ever really straight about anything?

Whether they (the media) have a bias or not, is what the Israeli State has being doing right in the minds of those who see the reports?

It doesn't mean that those who see the reports and read the articles are biased, and there exists some nefarious plot that is not "Kosher". That's a level of paranoia you might expect in Israel.

If a tree falls in the forest but no one hears it, does it make a sound?



Sorry, just thought I'd throw that in there.

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Never let right or wrong get in the way of a good opinion

It's not a 'plot'. It's 1500 years of hatred that don't just disappear overnight.

But we've been over this before in the Flotilla thread. There's no reason to go over it again.

Then why bring it up?

Because this thread keeps rising to the top of the page like the scum on a vat of porridge.

And when someone is wrong on the internet, it would be criminal to let it pass!

What, you mean actually do something about it?

Careful! I'm filling up my pen with green ink even as we speak...

The yearly BBC poll on the countries image perception shows the same thing: the image of Israel is mainly negative everywhere in the world. Even in countries that have no historical "antisemitism" or jewish communities in asia, south america, africa and europe. The lazy explanation is to come with the antisemitism argument. One has then to explain us why Israel has such a bad image in Brazil and Japan. The more rational argument would be to explain it by things like:
- violence in occupied territories againt palestinians
- ignoring international laws & rules with continuing colonization
- Gaza fleet operation
- Dubai operation
that are relayed in the media. One can come with the conspiracy theory and say all media are antisemit. Please stop it with the antisemit conspiracy theory.

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Resist, support, donate: ACLU
They tried to bury us, they did not know that we are seeds (Mexican proverb)

No, because it's true (except it's not a conspiracy, as that would require some intelligence and rational planning, as opposed to centuries of received wisdom and prejudice).

But I'm going to leave this thread for a bit until something more interesting happens, like the Arab League deciding that Palestinians should have the same rights to citizenship in their member countries that everyone else has, for example.

(What? Arabs share the blame for making the Arabs of Palestine their political pawns? Perish the thought! )