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  #101  
Old 22.11.2009, 00:09
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Hamas and Gaza militants 'to end Israel rocket attacks'


Rockets fired from Gaza usually cause limited damage in Israel

Hamas says it has agreed with other Palestinian militant groups in Gaza to stop firing rockets into Israel.
Fathi Hammad, who acts as Hamas interior minister, said the ceasefire aimed to prevent retaliatory attacks by Israel and build stability.
But he said rockets would continue to be fired from the Gaza Strip in the event of any Israeli incursions.
Hamas has observed a ceasefire for months, but other groups have carried out sporadic cross-border attacks.
The rockets usually cause limited damage and few if any casualties.
Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli military offensive in Gaza last December and January, was intended to put a stop to the attacks, some of which have reached up to 46km (28 miles) into Israel.
About 1,300 Palestinians and 10 Israeli soldiers were killed in the three weeks of fighting. Three Israeli citizens also died in rocket attacks during the operation.
Mr Hammad said ending the firing of rockets would bring greater stability to the lives of people in Gaza, enabling them to continue repairing the damage caused by the conflict.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8372728.stm
  #102  
Old 23.11.2009, 17:31
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

"Fire rockets at Israel, Israel will retaliate"

How long does it take to learn ?

Judging by Hamas/PLO truce precedents - this one won't last very long either. I hope I'm wrong...
  #103  
Old 24.11.2009, 12:51
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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... this one won't last very long either. I hope I'm wrong...
I wasn't wrong: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8375767.stm
  #104  
Old 24.11.2009, 13:48
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I guess not. So some renegade Gaza guys sent a rocket into an Israeli desert inuring no-one, causing no damage.

Israel's response?

Quote:
and hours later Israeli forces responded with three air raids that wounded eight Palestinians.
Meanwhile from the same BBC report posted by Pashosh
Quote:
Gas shortage'
Separately, Oxfam warned of growing cooking gas shortages in Gaza, which is subject to a strict Israeli blockade.
Some of the bakeries that supply Gaza's 1.5 million people with bread have already closed down, others are running low, the UK-based charity warned, adding that hospitals may soon have to cut back on cooking and laundry operations.
It said the Union of Gas Station owners blamed the shortages on the fact that Israel has shifted gas transfers from the Nahal Oz crossing to the one at Keren Shalom, which has lower capacity.
Gaza needs 4,500 tonnes of gas a month in summer and 6,000 in winter, Oxfam said, and has so far received only 697 tonnes in November.
Then these reports from Reuters- yesterday and today

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has offered to add Israeli systems and munitions to a new U.S.-built fighter jet and deliver it to Israel by 2015, provided a deal is sealed in coming months.
Quote:
Nov 23 (Reuters) - Palestinians will not launch a new uprising against Israel despite their frustration at the deadlock in U.S.-sponsored peace efforts, President Mahmoud Abbas said on Monday.

Quote:
Fernandez and Abbas criticized Israel's announcement last week of plans to build 900 new homes in the settlements. Argentina's president also asked the United States to step up its involvement in the peace process.


  #105  
Old 24.11.2009, 13:59
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Cease fire is cease fire - no shots, no rockets, no stones or even roasted marshmallows.

Like in the shop - you broke it, you bought it. Gaza got off lightly this time.
  #106  
Old 24.11.2009, 14:25
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

and no more settlements is lots more settlements?

and allowing humanitarian aid is starving them out?

and not getting involved militarily is adding Israeli systems and munitions to a new U.S.-built fighter jet and delivering it to Israel?


In the meantime if Israel says not even a marshmallow then I guess that's what the world will accept and just turn a blind eye to the rest.
  #107  
Old 24.11.2009, 16:34
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

What does all of the above has to do with Hamas's declaration of cease fire ?


btw - when did the Israeli govt. declare settlement freeze ?
  #108  
Old 24.11.2009, 17:07
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8376448.stm?ls

An increasing number of Israeli soldiers are publicly objecting, on religious and political grounds, to their role in the evacuation of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
  #109  
Old 24.11.2009, 17:37
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I guess not. So some renegade Gaza guys sent a rocket into an Israeli desert inuring no-one, causing no damage...
To suggest as you do that 'no harm done' terrorist attacks under the watch of Hamas should be ignored is rather nave. Considering all the reading you've done, I'd have thought you'd know Hamas and Israel better than that by now...
  #110  
Old 24.11.2009, 17:39
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8376448.stm?ls

An increasing number of Israeli soldiers are publicly objecting, on religious and political grounds, to their role in the evacuation of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
I wonder where this crisis of consience was during the Gaza massacre??
  #111  
Old 24.11.2009, 17:44
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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What does all of the above has to do with Hamas's declaration of cease fire ?


btw - when did the Israeli govt. declare settlement freeze ?
This is a great post Pashosh! Really nails the whole argument.
  #112  
Old 24.11.2009, 17:44
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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"Fire rockets at Israel, Israel will retaliate"

How long does it take to learn ?

Judging by Hamas/PLO truce precedents - this one won't last very long either. I hope I'm wrong...
You ARE wrong when mentioning the PLO as the truce with the PLO now has lasted for a number of years. And has brought stability and good economic results to Palestine. Hamas is NOT a member of the PLO but an outsider, and until they can bring about stability in the Gaza Territory, there cannot be any progress there. Another point is their fundamentalist approach, banning alcohol, entertainment, music, modern clothing. This means that no development of tourism will be possible in the Gaza Territory, while this is possible in the PLO-run main part of Palestine.

And just in case you ask what the PLO is, the PLO is an umbrella-organisation including a varieties of parties and organisations including el-Fatah, GUPS (General Union of Palestinian Students, linked to Fatah), el-Saika (linked to Syria), the PLA (Palestine Liberation Army, linked to Egypt), the PFLP (led by Orthodox Christians), the PDFLP (originally a split-away from PFLP), and some others. While these parties include right-wing parties like Fatah and leftwingers like PFLP and PDFLP, what they share is an Arab Nationalist and more or less secularist agenda, while Hamas is fundamentalist-Islamist and favours an extreme "pan-Islam" agenda .
  #113  
Old 24.11.2009, 17:45
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Notice how nobody has mentioned the trouble the atheists are causing in Isreal and nobody on here has slated them?
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  #114  
Old 24.11.2009, 18:14
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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To suggest as you do that 'no harm done' terrorist attacks under the watch of Hamas should be ignored is rather nave. Considering all the reading you've done, I'd have thought you'd know Hamas and Israel better than that by now...
So we know for sure that it was Hamas that fired the rocket and that the Palestinian subject killed near the border was planting a bomb? It was a plaestinina rcket but as far as I have read no-one has claimed responsibilty yet.

I try to read beyond the headlines. this was the situation on Nov 13th.

Quote:
its officials ( Hamas) privately allow that Hamas, and smaller Gazan armed groups, are holding fire to allow efforts to repair the territory's ravaged infrastructure. Islamic Jihad, and other Palestinian factions with links to al Qaeda, have also accused Hamas of arresting their rocketeers.
Palestinians fired a rocket from north Gaza into Israel on Friday, causing no damage, an Israeli military spokeswoman said.
There was no claim of responsibility for the launch, which followed the army's killing of a Palestinian suspected of trying to plant a bomb near the border. Hamas police said the dead man, and two other Palestinians hurt in the incident, were hunters.
  #115  
Old 24.11.2009, 18:38
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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So we know for sure that it was Hamas that fired the rocket and that the Palestinian subject killed near the border was planting a bomb? It was a plaestinina rcket but as far as I have read no-one has claimed responsibilty yet.

I try to read beyond the headlines. this was the situation on Nov 13th.
The point is that for the Israeli armed forces, the rocket(s) came from the Gaza Territory, and as Hamas is in charge there, they in the eyes of the Israelis are guilty and responsible. The Israeli argument is that it is the obligations of the Hamas police force to make such attacks impossible, or else bear consequences.

"el Qaeda" ? I have my doubts. In the past, insane people felt to be Napoleon. At present, any local terrorists' group claims to be a kind of elQaeda franchisee !
  #116  
Old 24.11.2009, 18:50
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The point is that for the Israeli armed forces, the rocket(s) came from the Gaza Territory, and as Hamas is in charge there, they in the eyes of the Israelis are guilty and responsible. The Israeli argument is that it is the obligations of the Hamas police force to make such attacks impossible, or else bear consequences.

"el Qaeda" ? I have my doubts. In the past, insane people felt to be Napoleon. At present, any local terrorists' group claims to be a kind of elQaeda franchisee !
And the Israelis should be accountable for the actions of settlers, or forces that commit atrocities. If Gaza retaliated in like for every crime committed on their soil, imagine the state of Israel.
  #117  
Old 24.11.2009, 19:01
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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So we know for sure that it was Hamas that fired the rocket and that the Palestinian subject killed near the border was planting a bomb? It was a plaestinina rcket but as far as I have read no-one has claimed responsibilty yet.

I try to read beyond the headlines. this was the situation on Nov 13th.
A really good idea to get under the skin of the place would be to work there. I have on both sides of that wretched fence and I love the place, despite it's tragic situation. Do not, however, believe a single word about 'hunters on the border'. Every soul in the region knows you don't dick about on the border area. You will be treated with extreme prejudice, and I've witnessed how quickly that judgement is made. Hamas don't have 100% control over everyone, but it's their responsibility to have maximum security for everyone's sake.

Muddling the discussion with settlement issues occuring elsewhere doesn't help and with regard to Gaza and environs is irrelevent. I wonder how you'd react when homemade mortars are whizzing through the air. It's totally asymetrical warfare and Israel reacts in one very clearly predefined manner.
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  #118  
Old 24.11.2009, 19:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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A really good idea to get under the skin of the place would be to work there. I have on both sides of that wretched fence and I love the place, despite it's tragic situation. Do not, however, believe a single word about 'hunters on the border'. Every soul in the region knows you don't dick about on the border area. You will be treated with extreme prejudice, and I've witnessed how quickly that judgement is made. Hamas don't have 100% control over everyone, but it's their responsibility to have maximum security for everyone's sake.

Muddling the discussion with settlement issues occuring elsewhere doesn't help and with regard to Gaza and environs is irrelevent. I wonder how you'd react when homemade mortars are whizzing through the air. It's totally asymetrical warfare and Israel reacts in one very clearly predefined manner.

But what do YOU know about those "separate small groups" in the Gaza Territory ? Are they internal opposition groups of Hamas ? or really separate groups with a desire to rival Hamas in that area ? And are they really more extreme than Hamas, or just trying to make life difficult for the Hamas leadership ?
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  #119  
Old 24.11.2009, 19:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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very clearly predefined manner..... I wonder how you'd react when homemade mortars are whizzing through the air.
Yep that was made clear by the Goldstone report. This is how the Iranians reacted when attacked by scud missiles? I guess that Gaza feels much the same way. Scuds versus mortars?
  #120  
Old 24.11.2009, 19:32
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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But what do YOU know about those "separate small groups" in the Gaza Territory ? Are they internal opposition groups of Hamas ? or really separate groups with a desire to rival Hamas in that area ? And are they really more extreme than Hamas, or just trying to make life difficult for the Hamas leadership ?
I have no insight into who's firing what. Hamas, on the other hand, most certainly do. Either way, Israel have made it very clear the terms and conditions
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