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Old 24.11.2009, 19:36
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Yep that was made clear by the Goldstone report. This is how the Iranians reacted when attacked by scud missiles? I guess that Gaza feels much the same way. Scuds versus mortars? ...
So it's the inbalance of fire power which you object to? Would you prefer the nutters to have Apaches, so everything's a little fairer?
  #122  
Old 24.11.2009, 19:41
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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You ARE wrong when mentioning the PLO as the truce with the PLO now has lasted for a number of years. And has brought stability and good economic results to Palestine.
Only if you define truce as "I'll arrest your guys, beat them up & kill them in my territory, You'll do the same in yours". Try waving a Hamas flag in Ramallah today...

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Hamas is NOT a member of the PLO but an outsider, and until they can bring about stability in the Gaza Territory, there cannot be any progress there. Another point is their fundamentalist approach, banning alcohol, entertainment, music, modern clothing. This means that no development of tourism will be possible in the Gaza Territory, while this is possible in the PLO-run main part of Palestine.
Agreed.

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And just in case you ask what the PLO is, the PLO is an umbrella-organisation including a varieties of parties and organisations including el-Fatah, GUPS (General Union of Palestinian Students, linked to Fatah), el-Saika (linked to Syria), the PLA (Palestine Liberation Army, linked to Egypt), the PFLP (led by Orthodox Christians), the PDFLP (originally a split-away from PFLP), and some others. While these parties include right-wing parties like Fatah and leftwingers like PFLP and PDFLP, what they share is an Arab Nationalist and more or less secularist agenda, while Hamas is fundamentalist-Islamist and favours an extreme "pan-Islam" agenda .
Lovely bunch. I'm sure they'll be able to run a succesful country.
  #123  
Old 24.11.2009, 19:44
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8376448.stm?ls

An increasing number of Israeli soldiers are publicly objecting, on religious and political grounds, to their role in the evacuation of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.
Considering the results of the last evacuation round, not entirely unexpected.

Still - these soldiers are sent to jail.
  #124  
Old 24.11.2009, 19:50
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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But what do YOU know about those "separate small groups" in the Gaza Territory ? Are they internal opposition groups of Hamas ? or really separate groups with a desire to rival Hamas in that area ? And are they really more extreme than Hamas, or just trying to make life difficult for the Hamas leadership ?
Please enlighten us. In any case - it doesn't matter who they are and what are their goals. If anyone decides to fire "home made rockets" From Switzerland at Germany, the Swiss army will not ask these questions, and rightly so.
  #125  
Old 24.11.2009, 20:11
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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So it's the inbalance of fire power which you object to? Would you prefer the nutters to have Apaches, so everything's a little fairer?
There are nutters on all sides, some are getting advanced technology and of course arms dealers will always be happy to make a profit.
What is left in Gaza worth having? The gas perhaps? What is there left worth having in Iraq- the oil?
  #126  
Old 24.11.2009, 20:14
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Lovely bunch. I'm sure they'll be able to run a succesful country.
How effectively is Israel being run? Everything Hunkydory?
  #127  
Old 24.11.2009, 20:16
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Please enlighten us. In any case - it doesn't matter who they are and what are their goals. If anyone decides to fire "home made rockets" From Switzerland at Germany, the Swiss army will not ask these questions, and rightly so.
They don't ask question they pull out the Swiss airforce and carry out a few bombing raids- Even the SVP are not that stupid.
  #128  
Old 24.11.2009, 20:17
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2



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How effectively is Israel being run? Everything Hunkydory?
How's the US? Everything Hunky Dory there?
  #129  
Old 24.11.2009, 21:15
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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How's the US? Everything Hunky Dory there?
Let's just say that while nothing's perfect, I have the right to live in a lot of countries including Switzerland and I am happiest here.
  #130  
Old 24.11.2009, 21:19
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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How's the US? Everything Hunky Dory there?
Maybe we should stop feeding the Troll ?
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  #131  
Old 24.11.2009, 21:20
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Only if you define truce as "I'll arrest your guys, beat them up & kill them in my territory, You'll do the same in yours". Try waving a Hamas flag in Ramallah today...
Agreed.
Lovely bunch. I'm sure they'll be able to run a succesful country.
A) I referred to the truce between the PLO and Israel
B) Since Hamas became the only party in Gaza and the PLO retreated to West Bank and East Jerusalem, the PLO presence in Gaza is zero and the Hamas presence in Palestine-mainland is zero
C) Why should the PLO not run a successful country ? Many countries have multi-parties coalitions, and Palestine is now quite successful. Even two beer breweries have re-opened there since the new arrangements ! And apparently are doing now extremely well
  #132  
Old 24.11.2009, 21:33
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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A) I referred to the truce between the PLO and Israel
I specificaly wrote Hamas/PLO Truce. PLO is currently co-operating with Israel - probably because the alternative (Hamas) is worse.

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B) Since Hamas became the only party in vGaza and the PLO retreated to West Bank and East Jerusalem, the PLO presence in Gaza is zero and the Hamas presence in Palestine-mainland is zero
Some nation, the palestianians...

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C) Why should the PLO not run a successful country ? Many countries have multi-parties coalitions, and Palestine is now quite successful. Even two beer breweries have re-opened there since the new arrangements ! And apparently are doing now extremely well
The PLO will run palestine like any other Arab country - Racist, corrupt, Brutal.
Ask the Christian villagers in Taybe (where the breweries are located) how well they were treated (example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Palest...y/message/1347).
Most minorities in Arab countries are so discriminated against, they make the American south in the 30s look like model in race relations.
  #133  
Old 24.11.2009, 23:19
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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< The PLO will run palestine like any other Arab country - Racist, corrupt, Brutal.
.
My last post was deleted but I think that I should be allowed to respond to this crucial point as it is poignant to the whole argument, it is a critiscism that comes up often in arguments concerning the Middle East.

Oil and democracy do not mix. There have been efforts by Middle Eastern countries to be more democratic Nasser (whom I wasn't that much in favour of), Mossadegh, Algerian uprising, the previous revolution in Iran and the present revolution in Iran,the backing of the Taliban in Afghanistan and last but not least the British promotion of Wahhabis in Saudia Arabia. Israel fear a unified Arab block or that Arabs and Iranians be allied, they try to play one of against the other.

So imagine that the Arabs were more democratic, independent of western backing but united as Arabs, what would the situation be with Israel then? Imagine the pressure on western governments to back the Arabs and Iranians if they have them by the oil jugular and the calls for the repatriation of so many displaced Palestinains.

I think that Israel be allowed the right to exist within the green line, that Jerusalem be shared. But I do not think that the rest of the Middle East should be kept under oppressive regimes for that to happen. In many ways the Middle East is it's own worst enemy because that is what suits a lot of other nations. Doesn't anyone remember the oil prices in the US during the Iranian revolution and the effect on the US economy and Politicp? Suppose Communism and not Religion had taken hold of Iran, with Russia having direct access to the Gulf. Would even the Berlin wall have fallen? What would Israel's position be then?

So go ahead and criticize the ' barbarianism', of the Arabs, but it is one of the main things that works in Israel's favour.
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  #134  
Old 24.11.2009, 23:22
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

A) I referred to the truce between the PLO and Israel




I specificaly wrote Hamas/PLO Truce. PLO is currently co-operating with Israel - probably because the alternative (Hamas) is worse.

***** Sure, but also the Hamas/PLO truce is holding, with Hamas in power in Gaza and the PLO (dominated by Fatah) in Palestine mainland


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B) Since Hamas became the only party in vGaza and the PLO retreated to West Bank and East Jerusalem, the PLO presence in Gaza is zero and the Hamas presence in Palestine-mainland is zero




Some nation, the palestianians...

***** The "Palestinians" is what used to be deep into the 20th Century "Arabs in Palestine" with the Gaza dialect already sounding heavily Egyptian Arabic even if not being so in regard to structure, grammar and many expressions, while the dialects in East Jerusalem and the West Bank sound similar to the dialects in Jordan and Syria. What those in power in Cairo do not love to hear is that the people in the Gaza Territory and the people in the el-Arish Directorate in reality belong together. Mr Netanyahu clearly plays the "Gaza Territory" <> "Palestine" game as he apparently realized this and plays on the probability that the two territories will remain separate.


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C) Why should the PLO not run a successful country ? Many countries have multi-parties coalitions, and Palestine is now quite successful. Even two beer breweries have re-opened there since the new arrangements ! And apparently are doing now extremely well




The PLO will run palestine like any other Arab country - Racist, corrupt, Brutal.
Ask the Christian villagers in Taybe (where the breweries are located) how well they were treated (example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Palest...y/message/1347).
Most minorities in Arab countries are so discriminated against, they make the American south in the 30s look like model in race relations.

***** No, Arab countries in general are neither racist nor brutal, and corruption also is evident on the other side of the Mediterranean (in spite of democracy).
***** Minorities in Arab countries as elsewhere do not have it exactly easy, but are not discriminated as heavily as you portray things. For example, since "Arab socialism" in Egypt has been reduced, many Greeks have returned to Egypt. Greeks/Egyptians own most of the wine-shops in Cairo and Alexandria btw.

you then mention some civil unrest in the Taybe areas. The report blames both the Israeli and the PLO security forces, while both very simply were surprised by the sudden development. To generalize such things is hardly acceptable and wrong.

TRUE however is that the breweries had to close in the short time the Hamas dominated parliament and government dictated things all over the Palestinian territories.
  #135  
Old 24.11.2009, 23:41
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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...No, Arab countries in general are neither racist nor brutal...

...To generalize such things is hardly acceptable and wrong...
Careful, now There aren't many Arab nations I've worked in where I felt altogether comfortable with the state of justice.
  #136  
Old 24.11.2009, 23:43
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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My last post was deleted but I think that I should be allowed to respond to this crucial point as it is poignant to the whole argument, it is a critiscism that comes up often in arguments concerning the Middle East.

Oil and democracy do not mix. There have been efforts by Middle Eastern countries to be more democratic Nasser (whom I wasn't that much in favour of), Mossadegh, Algerian uprising, the previous revolution in Iran and the present revolution in Iran,the backing of the Taliban in Afghanistan and last but not least the British promotion of Wahhabis in Saudia Arabia. Israel fear a unified Arab block or that Arabs and Iranians be allied, they try to play one of against the other.

So imagine that the Arabs were more democratic, independent of western backing but united as Arabs, what would the situation be with Israel then? Imagine the pressure on western governments to back the Arabs and Iranians if they have them by the oil jugular and the calls for the repatriation of so many displaced Palestinains.

I think that Israel be allowed the right to exist within the green line, that Jerusalem be shared. But I do not think that the rest of the Middle East should be kept under oppressive regimes for that to happen. In many ways the Middle East is it's own worst enemy because that is what suits a lot of other nations. Doesn't anyone remember the oil prices in the US during the Iranian revolution and the effect on the US economy and Politicp? Suppose Communism and not Religion had taken hold of Iran, with Russia having direct access to the Gulf. Would even the Berlin wall have fallen? What would Israel's position be then?

So go ahead and criticize the ' barbarianism', of the Arabs, but it is one of the main things that works in Israel's favour.
Let's see it that most Arab countries are either more or less democratic / semi-democratic like Morocco (democracy with an elected parliament and the majority leader being Prime Minister, but a powerful King), Algeria (increasingly REALLY democratic), Tunisia (modern, but with a fake-democracy), Egypt (democratic elections allowing many parties into parliament but with some strange counting which gives a 25% an overall 55% majority in parliament), Lebanon (a real democracy), Jordan (democratic parliament but the Prime Minister appointed by the powerful King) and Yemen (democratically elected parliament with its MPs often being reps of tribes and a military ruler on top) and by relatively liberal dictators like Dr Assad in Syria, by fairly enlightened royal rulers like the Emirs in the UAE and in Qatar or the King of Bahrain or the Sultan of Oman. The regime I regard as truly oppressive is the House of Sa'ud, and the one of Mr Khaddafi. So that overall, the term oppressive is not really correct. All the bunch of "rulers" I mentioned have the same basic problem and that is that radio- and even TV-stations can be received easily in most of these countries. This is why Dr Assad opened Syria to the internet, as he realized that this is the way to move ahead and to open up the country without alienating the military and party pashas on whose support he depends.

Israel when new was of course centuries ahead of the area, and it still was ahead in the late 1960ies. It still profits from all things going wrong in the area, and there are many enough.

More important than Iran, about who so many people speak penetratingly these days, is the development of Iraq, which most likely is to become a powerful country again, as it was last time under President General Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr. And then again "the Eastern Pillar of the Arab World".

And in case of Iran, the gradual transformation of the Mullahcracy into a Military Dicatorship also is quite an interesting development.
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  #137  
Old 24.11.2009, 23:46
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Careful, now There aren't many Arab nations I've worked in where I felt altogether comfortable with the state of justice.
The "state of justice" in most of the Arab World indeed is not exactly encouraging ! But I do not give more points to the Italian neighbours in the Mare Nostrum nor to those in the Hellenic Republic.

There is still some room for improvement
  #138  
Old 24.11.2009, 23:56
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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The "state of justice" in most of the Arab World indeed is not exactly encouraging ! But I do not give more points to the Italian neighbours in the Mare Nostrum nor to those in the Hellenic Republic.

There is still some room for improvement
Lots, and I'd rather live in Turin than Manama again. One man's fairly enlightened ruler is anothers thug, with Sandhurst education.

Let's not compare chalk and cheese...
  #139  
Old 25.11.2009, 07:16
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Lots, and I'd rather live in Turin than Manama again. One man's fairly enlightened ruler is anothers thug, with Sandhurst education.

Let's not compare chalk and cheese...
In many ways, Italy in general and Torino in particular indeed are places to live indeed. But when you mention thugs, it is be said that Berlusconi is NOT from Turin but from Milano, while I would not even call him enlightened
  #140  
Old 25.11.2009, 17:46
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

getting bigger and more sophisticated all the time.. Iwonderwhere this metallic cloud had already been tested?

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Having failed to crush Hamas' firepower in its Gaza offensive last winter, or Hezbollah's in its 2006 war in Lebanon, Israel is turning to an increasingly sophisticated mix of defensive technology.
A system that can unleash a metallic cloud to shoot down incoming rockets in the skies over Gaza or Lebanon has already been successfully tested, according to its maker, and is expected to be deployed next year. The army is developing a new generation of its Arrow defense system designed to shoot down Iran's long-range Shihab missiles outside the Earth's atmosphere. It has three German-made Dolphin submarines and is buying two more. They can be equipped with nuclear-tipped missiles which analysts say could be stationed off the coast of Iran
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_370297.html

I heard a report on radio 4 that netanyahu does actually want peace with Palestine, which is why he has offered a partial freeze on settlements.he wants this so that he can concentrate on preparing an attack on Iran and Lebanon early next year.

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Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's Middle East editor, talks of how the conflict in the Middle East is teaching President Obama hard and humiliating lessons.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/fooc/
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