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  #1441  
Old 13.04.2011, 16:27
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

The U.N is still producing ridiculous reports. After the Goldstone fiasco, comes the Serry report: apparently the PA is ready for statehood:

“In six areas where the UN is most engaged, government functions are now sufficient for a functioning government of a state.”

The six areas were: “governance, rule of law and human rights; livelihoods; education and culture; health; social protection; and infrastructure and water.”


let's see: governance - the PA was kicked out of gaza and is holding on to power in the West bank thanks to the Israeli army. for example: What would happen to the Palestinian PM if he entered Gaza ?

The other items are just as stupid: Hamas's human rights record is hardly enviable. the PA is better, but only just.

This report is like a tobacco company report saying that cigarettes are healthy.
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Old 15.04.2011, 13:44
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

It is a mess now, for example, "An Italian pro-Palestinian activist has been found hanged hours after he was kidnapped in Gaza."

"In Rome, the Italian foreign ministry denounced "in the strongest manner the act of vile and senseless violence committed by extremists who are indifferent to the value of human life."

I do not see how anyone can bring all these different factions together in a reasonable form.
  #1443  
Old 15.04.2011, 14:04
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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It is a mess now, for example, "An Italian pro-Palestinian activist has been found hanged hours after he was kidnapped in Gaza."

"In Rome, the Italian foreign ministry denounced "in the strongest manner the act of vile and senseless violence committed by extremists who are indifferent to the value of human life."

I do not see how anyone can bring all these different factions together in a reasonable form.
Simple: give them a state. nothing works better for fanatic islamists than to have their own state. At least, that's what the UN suggested (see my previous post)
  #1444  
Old 15.04.2011, 14:15
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I'm sure that many Israelis celebrate the illegal bulldozing of Palestinian homes. Anyway they have Abbas al-Sayed in isolation for over a year with no family visits- he is on hunger strike against his conditions

http://humanityvoice.net/news_details.php?id=6423

What about the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit who was kidnapped by Hamas in 2006, and is kept in solitary confinement by Hamas? Even the Red Cross (ICRC) has been denied access to him.

And why is Abbas al-Sayed in prison?
Just for planning the Netanya Passover massacre that killed 30 innocent people. 21 of the victims were over 70 years old.

What a hero.

---

Although I would think that if Israel is holding a prisoner in solitary confinement, there must be a national security reason? Perhaps he is capable of leading/planning more attacks even from within?

Bullldozing of Palestinian homes is definitely a disgrace, but I am pretty
sure no Israelis are celebrating, handing out sweets, creating fireworks displays, even when a Palestinian terrorist with blood on his/her hands is killed.

---

And today on the news, an Italian activist, Vittorio Arrioni was kidnapped and executed in Gaza by Islamist militants. RIP.

See a video of him:
  #1445  
Old 15.04.2011, 15:26
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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What about the Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit who was kidnapped by Hamas in 2006, and is kept in solitary confinement by Hamas? Even the Red Cross (ICRC) has been denied access to him.

Although I would think that if Israel is holding a prisoner in solitary confinement, there must be a national security reason? Perhaps he is capable of leading/planning more attacks even from within?

Bullldozing of Palestinian homes is definitely a disgrace, but I am pretty
sure no Israelis are celebrating, handing out sweets, creating fireworks displays, even when a Palestinian terrorist with blood on his/her hands is killed.
Maybe you should read back through this thread, there are Palestinian women and children in Israeli prisons and Israelis use children as shields.
Of course Israelis celebrate when land is captured whether Palestiinians are killed or not. The aim of many Israelis is to control the whole of Palestine to turn it into a bigger Israel. There is evil on both sides., but the people who are suffering most are the Palestinian children. Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
  #1446  
Old 15.04.2011, 15:39
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

here's a report on how israeli does not comply with international human rights in the detaining and imprisonment of women and children

http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/...aeli-jails.pdf

and here's a video


or two

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  #1447  
Old 15.04.2011, 16:04
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Ok here we go watch to the end is that Vittorio and O'Keefe working together?

Yep seems like they were close friends working together:

http://salem-news.com/articles/april...rrigoni-tk.php


Last edited by hoppy; 15.04.2011 at 16:52.
  #1448  
Old 15.04.2011, 17:15
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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...
And why is Abbas al-Sayed in prison?
Just for planning the Netanya Passover massacre that killed 30 innocent people. 21 of the victims were over 70 years old.

What a hero.

---

And today on the news, an Italian activist, Vittorio Arrioni was kidnapped and executed in Gaza by Islamist militants. RIP.
In al-Sayed case I must say I hope he will be a Suicide bomber - comming suicide in prison, by starving himself.
Not very likely as palstinian hunger strikes are usualy a sham.

Arrigoni was a pro-palestinian activist supporting a terrorist, islamo-fascist regime.
He was so rabid to even post this on the day he was kidnapped. The man he called a traitor was an Egyptian pacifist.

Arrigoni is a prime example of a "useful idiot"
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Old 21.04.2011, 10:06
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I have not read through this entire thread but have to say there are some seriously dead head comments. Put aside any specific situations that have arisen "he killed so and so" but "they killed so and so" and just look at the situation on a human level and tell me can you really accept the plight of the Palestinians as an acceptable situation in today’s world?

Have Israel done such a wonderful job in protecting us all from those 'evil' muslims and managed the 'conflict'? If your struggling with the answer it is NO! But it's not that they're tactics have failed...no no...it's probably right on schedule actually considering what they are doing is clearly, obviously, beyond a shadow of a doubt to anyone not brain-washed an ETHNIC CLEANSING. The constant harassment and struggle their everyday lives consist of is no punishment for the resistance of a few groups it is a plan being played out at the expense of an entire nation.

I'd like to add a few comments about the Itamar killings. It's interesting the immediate assumption that a Palestinian had committed these crimes...and without a doubt it was a heinous and horrible crime. Perhaps it was a Palestinian I don't know...but a few facts to remember when throwing out such hasty judgments. Settlements are highly secure, gated communities, if a Palestinian or any person non-jewish approaches these places they are met immediately with not only private security but the army (don't forget the settler presence is the main reason for the army to be there). So your telling me a crazed Palestinian managed to get past one of the most sophisticated armies in the world? then past private security? THEN past the fanatical settlers whom themselves are armed...this person got IN and OUT and no one caught him? Settlers shoot Palestinians working in their own fields there is NO WAY he snuck past them. then you have the fact that NO ONE is allowed into these settlements foreign or otherwise so this Palestinian knew the neighborhood and how to get to this particular place without having ever had a possibility to see inside? And again he did so so sneakily that...the army, the security, nor the residents saw him? sounds a bit fishy to me. And what isn’t reported is what has happened to the Palestinian village Anwarta which is right next to Itimar. Soldiers have allowed settlers to attack, more than 50 people including women and children have been arrested, soldiers have ‘searched homes’ which means going in and destroying them and in some case defecating on the floor, people have been held for hours without access to water, people have been beaten etc etc etc etc etc. Your telling me this is a just way to react? Or investigate any issue?

The Westbank has supposedly ‘calm’ so why are Palestinians freedoms still being restricted? Even the shite argument about rockets…no rockets come from the westbank what’s justification there?

Why is Israel allowed to get away with human rights abuses such as arresting children? Why are peaceful protesters shot at with tear gas, bullets, chemical sprays and every year people are killed…at PEACEFUL protests. Why are protest organizers arrested and jailed indefinitely with no real charge? Why are settlers allowed to attack Palestinian homes and threaten/take lives with no repercussion yet a 14 year old girl is jailed for supposedly throwing a stone? It’s pure insanity to even for 1 minute suggest that this ‘collective punishment’ is just and anyone who does simply doesn’t know the truth.
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Old 21.04.2011, 12:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I have not read through this entire thread but have to say there are some seriously dead head comments.
Thank you for providing another one.
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  #1451  
Old 21.04.2011, 12:31
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I welcome any actual comments that add to the discussion?
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Old 21.04.2011, 12:50
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I welcome any actual comments that add to the discussion?
OK then
How do you know what is happening in villages like Anwarta; do you have any evidence?
Or should we just believe you?
  #1453  
Old 21.04.2011, 12:53
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I just came back from 2 months in the West Bank. During my time I developed many close relationships and saw first hand what is happening there. I have many friends both Palestinian and International still there and get information from people who were actually staying in the village and witnessed this first hand.
  #1454  
Old 21.04.2011, 13:00
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

oh and excuse me typo Awarta not Anwarta
  #1455  
Old 21.04.2011, 21:24
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I just came back from 2 months in the West Bank. During my time I developed many close relationships and saw first hand what is happening there. I have many friends both Palestinian and International still there and get information from people who were actually staying in the village and witnessed this first hand.
Hi Coralee and welcome to the Forum's longest thread.

2 months in the west bank - that's a considerable amount of time !
It would be interesting to hear about your experience - how did you organize the trip, memorable events, things you would recommend others to see/do etc.
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  #1456  
Old 22.04.2011, 09:42
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

Wow that's a difficult trip to summarize on a forum but I shall try my best to not ramble. Please excuse me if I do.

I went to there originally to volunteer teach English to children in and around the city of Nablus with a an NGO called Project Hope. They provide teachers to different schools around the city including the 2 refugee camps just on the skirts of the city. The Israel-Palestine issue has always been quite important to me and in my opinion one of the most disconcerting issues in the world right now. So my original goal was to go and get a feel for the real situation there as we all know the media is generally fickle at best. Nablus is a beautiful city with a stunning old city and wonderful food. A place well worth visiting on any trip to the West Bank. The people are amazing and welcoming and you won't walk 2 feet without people shouting "welcome to palestine" or stopping to ask you where you are from and if you want to come for dinner to meet their family...this is true all over the West Bank without a doubt the most hospitable, friendly people on earth. Even when they don't have a lot of money they will always manage a cup of tea or coffee for you no matter where you are.

On the 3rd day I was there I was invited to a demonstration in Bil'in by some other volunteers and as I had read about the regular Bil'in demonstration for years jumped at the chance. I will never forget how I felt after that first demonstration. The weekend before a local woman Jawahar Abu Rahma was killed by tear gas inhalation so the focus of this demo was her. Women and children all wallked in the front bearing a picture of Jawahar and posters stating 'gas won't tear us apart' As we made our way to the front towards the waiting armed soldiers I really didn't know what to expect despite having been briefed the night before about the demo, how to react to the weapons and how to try to stay safe. But as I marched with these woman chanting for peace, mothers, aunts, cousins, the nice old lady nextdoor, the nosy woman from up the street, the young girls who walk to school together everyday I thought to myself there is no way the army could perceive these women as a threat and use weapons so I felt anxious but safe. As we stood frontline a row of soldiers in front of me woman, girls and children all around me the men and boys not far behind the only seperation between the guns and the people a wire fence, some of the boys using wire cutters began to cut the fence. I should explain that the demonstration is 6 years old, every friday the people demonstrate against this illegal fence (deemed illegal even by Israeli court) that seperates the local people from their agricultural land which a settlement was built on. So legally there is no reason why they can't cut down the fence and morally they have no choice but to try. So face to face with a soldier holding a tear gas cannister with his hand on the pin, waiting for his order to attack the boys trying to cut the fence me and another girl started shouting for him to stop standing by the boys...being an international another soldier came over and told him to hold off. Suddenly everyone started running it happened so immediately I didn't have time to see why but when Palestinians start running at a demo it means to get the hell out of there as well so I bolted. I turned around while running to see what was coming but the only thing i focused on was a little girl about 7 years old also running with no adults around her and she was coughing from something. For a brief moment i turned my head and kept running as I didn't know what the hell was going on then realized that what I just saw and turned to grab the girl. I couldn't see her but suddenly I realized why she was coughing. The army uses a chemical spray, nobody really knows what's in it, it's known as skunk spray. It's basically water full of god knows what chemicals and smells more horrible than anything you can imagine. It can only be described as skunk like but times 1000. It immediately hit my stomach and made me want to vomit. The idea of it is that you will smell for weeks if you actually get hit by it so funnily enough people are actually more scared of that then the tear gas etc. Anyway after that started there was a barrage of tear gas, some bullets rubber or rubber coated, and this last for a couple of hours. I did see the little girl not long after that with her mom phew. This really affected me seeing the response by the army to a peaceful protest in memory of a loved one and to see that it doesn't matter to the army who they attack. And i knew that the rest of my trip would be spent standing in solidarity with the Palestinians.

I spent 1 month teaching until i visited a city called Hebron. This city has a lot of problems because it's the only place where the settlers are actually living within the city itself. 2 days in Hebron and I knew I would be quitting the teaching gig to work for an NGO there doing a lot of activist type work. The city is divided into H1 and H2, H1 being Palestinian controlled and H2 Israeli there are Palestinians living in H2 and they are subjected to constant and daily harrassment by the checkpoints and even more by the settlers who also live within the area. There is street call Shuhada street which used to house the main market square of Hebron at the demand of the settlers the street was closed to Palestinians, the shops welded shut and the market closed. Palestinians are forbidden to walk down this street but the Jewish and Internationals walk freely. Even the families who have houses on this street are not allowed to access their house from the street, they must climb over neighbours roofs, use ladders from behind etc but not their front door. There are often curfews put on palestinian homes when the Jewish want to walk around, Abrahams mosque is there part of which was taken by the Settlers who walk in and out of their side freely but Muslims/Palestinians are subjected to several checkpoints before reaching the mosque and then searched, often held under harrassment while id's are checked and basically humiliated on their way to prayer. Part of my work was to monitor checkpoints to document when harrassment occurred and intervene if necessary. Sometimes intervention worked, sometimes not but trust me there was plenty of harrassment towards, teenage boys, children on their way to school, teachers in the morning very troubling. Another duty was a school run which is shared by different NGO's working in the area as a response to attacks on Palestinian children by settler children. I mean who condones attacking children? it's sick. Around Hebron there are bedouin villages which are constantly torn down, houses in and around hebron are taken over by settlers, there are often attacks in Palestinian homes by settlers the list goes on. It is a shocking and horrible way to live.

I attended many demonstrations most of them ending in attacks by soldiers and nearly all with use of rubber bullets and tear gas. I myself with a group of others were chased by armed soldiers into an olive field and had to hide for hours in the wet, cold until the soldiers left so we could return to the village, I was arrested at a demo and falsely accused of assault, I've seen children arrested, houses demolished, people treated like garbage, boys shot, I attended a funeral of 19 yr old shot while collecting firewood by a settler, met families who have had houses, land, family taken from them and AMAZINGLY only ever hear Palestinians talk about peace...peace...peace. They have every damn right to be angry and to want to use force but they don't! they are tired, their children are traumatized and they want to just live their lives as we do in freedom and peace. It's not too much to ask.

What should you see if you ever go to the west bank? a mixture. Each city has a different feel but ALL are safe, the people welcoming and curious, every Palestinian has a story about how the occupation has affected them. Every family has had member arrested or killed, they want to share the stories to have the world know they are people not terrorists and they have a right to have their voices heard, the world should be backing them with everything in our power. If this is allowed to go on a 3-4 hr flight away from basel this will be allowed to go one anywhere. They're struggle should be all of ours we are after all human first and foremost.

The West Bank is an amazing wonderful place haunted by a disgusting occupation and regime go there, see for yourselves, enjoy the peacefulness amongst the crazy. See a demo, eat the amazing food, drink tea with shopkeeper. I guarantee you your life will be enriched by the experience and you will find it impossible to ignore the atrocities and deny the cleansing that happening. I will stand and resist in solidarity to the Palestinians as long as my life lets me because if you know and you ignore then a shame on your conscious. Free Palestine.
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  #1457  
Old 22.04.2011, 13:21
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

I feel obligated to go, I have no responsibilities at home anymore, I'm an ampty nester and it's about time I did something meaningful with my life. But I'm chicken. I'm not afraid of what I would find there I'm afraid of what my husband would say! I feel like the more ordinary people who go and see it for themselves the better. Thank you for going and thank you for sharing your story.
  #1458  
Old 22.04.2011, 13:28
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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I feel obligated to go, I have no responsibilities at home anymore, I'm an ampty nester and it's about time I did something meaningful with my life. But I'm chicken. I'm not afraid of what I would find there I'm afraid of what my husband would say! I feel like the more ordinary people who go and see it for themselves the better. Thank you for going and thank you for sharing your story.
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Old 22.04.2011, 13:40
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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Wow that's a difficult trip to summarize on a forum but I shall try my best to not ramble. Please excuse me if I do.


.
Many Thanks for this amazing story. And Hat`s off to you .
  #1460  
Old 22.04.2011, 20:09
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Re: Israel - Palestine - Part 2

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...AMAZINGLY only ever hear Palestinians talk about peace...peace...peace. They have every damn right to be angry and to want to use force but they don't!
Did you ask them what they believed the solution to the trouble would be? Only, it seems their political representatives can't do it for them.

I spent a long time on the other side - Khan Younis and Gaza - and I know the talk and action is not as simple as you portray it to be on the West Bank. Ever felt your lungs compress after a suicide bombing around the corner of a busy street? Taken cover when the nightly rockets are fired at your accomodation? Had your vehicle repeatedly shot at?

As a visitor, we have the luxury of leaving. Those remaining - from both sides of the fence - have to remain ever vigilent, ever jittery. It's exhausting.

There was an interesting two part documentary on British TV recently. They did a fair amount of filming at Bil'in. It showed the weekly procession after Friday prayers to the fence you describe, when the stones would start flying. The IDF officer lamented that it was a cat and mouse game, with both parties each trying to make their point and get on with their lives.

Having had way too many whiffs of tear gas and a sensible fear of personal harm, I did my best to avoid participating in demos, as observer or 'volunteer'. I did, however, work towards resolving the brutalisation such quagmires produce, by building community bridges. I don't think I would have been very effective / welcome had I maintained a polarised view of the struggles the people of the region face.

Be cautious in claiming "dead head" comments without offering balance. Peace and love.
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