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  #1641  
Old 21.08.2011, 22:51
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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And 3-4 civilian causalities in Gaza shocked you enough to post here about "attacking a population" ?
according to your way of thinking a few rockets in your garden shouldn't be a problem actually.
  #1642  
Old 21.08.2011, 22:51
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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A life is a life.

None of those exemples are better of each other. And it is not because someone is ''worse'' than Israel that it makes Israel less guilty.

Your way of thinking is pretty weird...
If life is life, than the death of 2000 syrians,168 kurds, hunderds of Libyans is much more imprtant than 4 Gazans. Yet you didn't care about them and still don't.

And now you decided that Israel is "Guilty" - of what ?

Why are you obsessed with Israel ?
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Old 21.08.2011, 22:58
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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Why are you obsessed with Israel ?
For reals Nil. Few are denying that Israel kills people, breaks international law and commits loads of crap. But it's really no worse or better than it's neighbours. So tell us: why are you focussing so intently on Israel?
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  #1644  
Old 21.08.2011, 22:59
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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Why are you obsessed with Israel ?
you still did not get it: all these revolutions in the last 7 months are about regaining dignity, freedom and break the neck of dictators and injustice. From arab population point of view Israel is in the same category as Mubarak, Gaddafi, Ben Ali and Assad.
  #1645  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:01
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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If life is life, than the death of 2000 syrians,168 kurds, hunderds of Libyans is much more imprtant than 4 Gazans. Yet you didn't care about them and still don't.
Again, Israel claims to have higher standards, as well as being the only true democracy in the ME so it should live up to those ideals and not react like a bear with a sore paw.
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  #1646  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:02
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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If life is life, than the death of 2000 syrians,168 kurds, hunderds of Libyans is much more imprtant than 4 Gazans. Yet you didn't care about them and still don't.

And now you decided that Israel is "Guilty" - of what ?

Why are you obsessed with Israel ?
I asked a question, and Eco answered me, end of story. Regarding you and your political view, I am not interested to expand them with you.

I have nothing against Israel beside its politic, sionism and how it deals with the whole Palestinian issue including colonisations on illegal territory.

So what is left you'll ask me? Its population. I have good friends form Israel and I am very happy to see they certainly don't think like you do.

Don't talk to me about kurds, you won't teach me anything about the whole situation and you'll make a foul of yourself.

Judging me and my interests on one questions is just an other way to show us how out of the track you are when it comes to have a conversation about middle east with you. You are totally biased and it is losing my time to even talk to you about it.

I'll let other more patient lose their time with you.
  #1647  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:04
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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Again, Israel claims to have higher standards, as well as being the only true democracy in the ME so it should live up to those ideals and not react like a bear with a sore paw.
Pity the fool that has a pop at the IDF and doesn't suppose the response will be swift & cutting.

Just statin' the form.
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Old 21.08.2011, 23:06
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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you still did not get it: all these revolutions in the last 7 months are about regaining dignity, freedom and break the neck of dictators and injustice. From arab population point of view Israel is in the same category as Mubarak, Gaddafi, Ben Ali and Assad.
Let's see how much dignity & freedom the revolutions will bring. so far they didn't achieve much. Hardly any change in Tunisia, Egypt is still ruled by the army and no one knows what Libya will look like a week from now.

But you are right about Israel's image in the Arab world - the raging, irrational hate is undeniable. read Mowvich's posts about Israel trying to steal the Nile/Sending Spies to get a sample.
  #1649  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:11
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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Let's see how much dignity & freedom the revolutions will bring. so far they didn't achieve much. Hardly any change in Tunisia, Egypt is still ruled by the army and no one knows what Libya will look like a week from now.
Tunisia: 100 new parties in Tunisia; running for 23rd october elections. Freedom of speech; debates on TV. Everyone talking about politics in the street. Something that was impossible 7 months ago. So stop spreading wrong information. Talk about what you really know or just read.
Building up a new country and system takes time and people are full of hope.

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But you are right about Israel's image in the Arab world - the raging, irrational hate is undeniable.
tThe hate you see is the mirror image of your hate of arabs.
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  #1650  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:14
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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For reals Nil. Few are denying that Israel kills people, breaks international law and commits loads of crap. But it's really no worse or better than it's neighbours. So tell us: why are you focussing so intently on Israel?
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Again, Israel claims to have higher standards, as well as being the only true democracy in the ME so it should live up to those ideals and not react like a bear with a sore paw.
Castro puts the words in my mouth! I have nothing against Israel beside that I was very disapointed to see them jumping right away on the '' it's the Palestinians who did it, let's bomb them kind of reaction even before the investigations came back with results.

I believe Israel is a forward country with advance quality of life, education, etc compared to all its neighbours. So you'll expect it to react at its grandeur! And not in a barbarian way... Why should I talk about the other countries? We all know those things already, things are changing, it will take time.

I did open a thread about Kurds a while ago, by the way. And I am always willing to give what belong to countries and their populations when it comes to the good and the bad.
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  #1651  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:22
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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Again, Israel claims to have higher standards, as well as being the only true democracy in the ME so it should live up to those ideals and not react like a bear with a sore paw.
1. We have one morality, one law. We don't allow convicted felons more leeway that upstanding citizens. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Whatever our definitions of these, can't we agree that they should be applied equally?

2. It will be interesting to see if the Arab Spring gives rise to workable democracies and if these give rise to real change and higher standards.

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I asked a question, and Eco answered me, end of story. Regarding you and your political view, I am not interested to expand them with you.

I have nothing against Israel beside its politic, sionism and how it deals with the whole Palestinian issue including colonisations on illegal territory.

So what is left you'll ask me? Its population. I have good friends form Israel and I am very happy to see they certainly don't think like you do.

Don't talk to me about kurds, you won't teach me anything about the whole situation and you'll make a foul of yourself.

Judging me and my interests on one questions is just an other way to show us how out of the track you are when it comes to have a conversation about middle east with you. You are totally biased and it is losing my time to even talk to you about it.

I'll let other more patient lose their time with you.
Just to expand on the points in bold (added by me). Zionism is inseparable from the very existence of Israel. It basically states that Israel (by some definition/borders) should exist as a home for the Jews. If you don't like Zionism in some form (you might say there's too much Zionism, or that it's too extreme) then you believe that Israel should disappear and the inhabitants be pushed into the sea (like many, many Palestinians and other Arabs). This is fair enough, but it's important we're careful with our definitions.

Again, with "illegal territory" we must be really careful about how we use this and what we ascribe to it and whether we're being hypocritical. Different hegemonies have granted "Israel" different territories over different periods of time. Mainly Britain (from the British Mandate) and the UN and latter treaties. Israel currently stands on a piece of land smaller than some and larger than others. Also don't forget that the UN (of your beloved international law which Israel so frequently breaks) granted the Palestinians a homeland under the 1947 plan which is substantially larger than Gaza and the West Bank and with Jerusalem under UN Mandate so unlimited access. Remember too that Israel agreed to this absolute and free homeland for the Palestinians but the Palestinians rejected it. Rejected the UN offering, the offering of the international legal system. Israel then declared independence but didn't declare borders and this was followed by a full scale Arab invasion designed for total annihilation. And on and on.

I am not pro-Israel, nor pro-Palestinian. They are stuck in the muck and they can't move and it's terribly sad. But no one's getting out of it until we can accept that there isn't a clear aggressor or a clear victim in this.

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you still did not get it: all these revolutions in the last 7 months are about regaining dignity, freedom and break the neck of dictators and injustice. From arab population point of view Israel is in the same category as Mubarak, Gaddafi, Ben Ali and Assad.
Sure, I understand that. From my point of view I'd lump the cookie monster in with all of them because I'm a fool and jealously guard the white chocolate chip variety.
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  #1652  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:23
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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Castro puts the words in my mouth! I have nothing against Israel beside that I was very disapointed to see them jumping right away on the '' it's the Palestinians who did it, let's bomb them kind of reaction even before the investigations came back with results.

I believe Israel is a forward country with advance quality of life, education, etc compared to all its neighbours. So you'll expect it to react at its grandeur! And not in a barbarian way... Why should I talk about the other countries? We all know those things already, things are changing, it will take time.

I did open a thread about Kurds a while ago, by the way. And I am always willing to give what belong to countries and their populations when it comes to the good and the bad.
Apparently about 100 rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza since Thursday.
You know if somebody was firing rockets into my place I would react; or do you think they should just "turn the other cheek?".
  #1653  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:36
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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Apparently about 100 rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza since Thursday.
You know if somebody was firing rockets into my place I would react; or do you think they should just "turn the other cheek?".
No, you are in your right to react. I was not talking about this. I mentioned the terrorist attack they had before.

Who started it? Are we sure it was terrorists from Gaza? Did they claimed revendication of it? Did Israel got the results of the investigations of who did it?

Israel answered it by attacking Gaza. Do you think it could be possible to use an other way to get to the presumed teerorists? By attacking Gaza, Israel puts its population in danger.

Don't get me wrong, Gaza is under criminal control. Those terrorists are doing troubles and keep the population into control with misinformations and hatred propaganda. But Israel is doing well too on his own to be hated. I believe the tactic of Israel is the wrong one and it won't stop the problems and terror as long as it will sit on its position and refused to re-think its position.
  #1654  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:37
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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If you don't like Zionism in some form (you might say there's too much Zionism, or that it's too extreme) then you believe that Israel should disappear and the inhabitants be pushed into the sea (like many, many Palestinians and other Arabs). (...)
interesting thoughts you posted here. But when I read the sentence (in bold) it just triggered a warning alarm: stereotyped generalization, discard the post.
  #1655  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:38
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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interesting thoughts you posted here. But when I read the sentence (in bold) it just triggered a warning alarm: stereotyped generalization, discard the post.
It isn't a generalisation, it's cold, hard fact. Many Palestinians believe that Israel should not exist. Do you doubt this?
  #1656  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:40
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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It isn't a generalisation, it's cold, hard fact. Many Palestinians believe that Israel should not exist. Do you doubt this?
Do YOU believe Israel had the right to get this land?
  #1657  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:41
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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No, you are in your right to react. I was not talking about this. I mentioned the terrorist attack they had before.

Who started it? Are we sure it was terrorists from Gaza? Did they claimed revendication of it? Did Israel got the results of the investigations of who did it?

Israel answered it by attacking Gaza. Do you think it could be possible to use an other way to get to the presumed teerorists? By attacking Gaza, Israel puts its population in danger.

Don't get me wrong, Gaza is under criminal control. Those terrorists are doing troubles and keep the population into control with misinformations and hatred propaganda. But Israel is doing well too on his own to be hated. I believe the tactic of Israel is the wrong one and it won't stop the problems and terror as long as it will sit on its position and refused to re-think its position.
If I understand you correctly then if Israel had said we are bombing Gaza because of the rockets it is OK.
But Israel said they are bombing Gaza because of the terrorist attack so it is not OK?
  #1658  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:42
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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It isn't a generalisation, it's cold, hard fact. Many Palestinians believe that Israel should not exist. Do you doubt this?
1) you wrote: palestinians and many other arabs....so you went beyond just palestinian population.

2) many palestinians know that Israel won't disappear, it's here and it will remain. They are pragmatic. Many palestinians do want a 2 states solution!
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Old 21.08.2011, 23:46
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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If I understand you correctly then if Israel had said we are bombing Gaza because of the rockets it is OK.
But Israel said they are bombing Gaza because of the terrorist attack so it is not OK?
Huh? no

What I said is what was the conditions that made Israel attack Gaza.

1- Terrorist attack coming ''apparently'' from Egypt = terrorists palestinians.

2- Bomb Gaza in revenge before to get the results of investigation

3- Gaza bomb Israel,

4- Israel bomb back.

Am I right?
  #1660  
Old 21.08.2011, 23:57
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Re: Egypt "Jan 25 - Day of revolution" [Update: Mubarak resigns]

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Do YOU believe Israel had the right to get this land?
Well the UN told them they could have it.
What do you think they should have replied?
For example, umm no thank you - we prefer to stay where we are where our neighbours feel it is OK to treat us like 3rd class citizens & carry out mass murders, pogroms, etc. Such countries included Russia, Germany, Poland Ukraine, Libya, Argentina, Romania, Libya & others.

I agree it was tough for the people who already lived there where Israel was located but they were only evicted, not slaughtered.
Just as an example there were far more people (including many farmers) evicted in the USA during the "great depression".

Anyway we are so far off topic so I guess this thread will be closed which is a pity because it was interesting discussing Egypt.
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